Episode III: "Our ability to use the Force has diminshed"

[Delvo]

This was a line said by Mace in a conversation with Yoda, in response to Yoda saying he was having trouble "seeing" what he was trying to "see". This does make sense and fit in with the big picture of the rise of a Sith Lord to domination of the Senate and such, if it was caused by some Dark Side trick he had learned, and it also explains why the Jedi sometimes seemed unable to effectively use it to their advantage in certain situations for no apparent reason (such as Obi-Wan's pitiful excuse for a fight against the non-Force-using Jango Fett). In fact I think it should have been mentioned sooner just to explain that problem in various unrelated scenes of underwhelming Force use or lack of it.

It seems like such a big deal by itself, a huge serious issue for the Jedi, that more should have been said about it; there should have been conversations contemplating its possible causes or what to do about it, or its effects should have been shown more clearly with scenes of Jedi trying to do something and clearly not getting the results they expected. But it was essentially thrown away after that one line and Yoda's response. The rest of the movie and the previous two proceeded as if it had never happened (aside from the scenes where Jedi didn't do obvious things they should have been able to do, like crushing or levitating or sweeping aside the combat droids that were shooting at them in the arena, or hopping over them or super-running past them to get out of that concentrated fire zone).

Why did the move makers bring it up only to drop it as if they forgot about it? They didn't even confirm or refute that it was Darth Sidius's doing!

And, if Darth Sidius was behind it, doesn't that mean that the effect would be gone at the end of Episode VI when he was killed? Yes, I know there weren't any Jedi (or Sith) we know of at the time but Luke and very briefly his father, but there were still others with at least some ability with the Force in the galaxy even if they weren't especially powerful and hadn't been trained; could the Emperor's death have un-suppressed them so they might appear to increase in power a bit or even discover their powers for the first time? Did Luke experience an improvement after that point, above and beyond what he gained just through his continuing studies on his own? Or could the Emperor even have chosen to QUIT doing it years before then anyway since he had no serious enemies left to suppress? Have any of the book authors touched this?

[TK-421]

To tell you the truth, I don't remember that line from the movie. I also have read alot of the novels and do not really recall coming across anything like it.

[Dave]

I took it mean specifically the clairvoyance aspect of the Force, "clouded" by the Sith, and not all abilities given by the Force in general. I could well be wrong, and I accept that, but I do think it needs to be placed in the context of that particular conversation.

[Huttman]

I believe the Sith can use their cunning to cloud others minds, whether it is a force power or just sneaky tactics, I'm not sure. The Jedi's diminished Force use had a big part in being too self assured and over confident so a dark lord of the Sith could execute his devious plans right under their noses and get away with it and that would explain their other lackluster battles. Yoda started to realize this all too late, me thinks.

[ghost8772]

I remember the line, but like the rest of the prequels, everything that could have been explored was skipped over to get to episode 4 ( and the last ten minutes were there to remind everyone where the movies were going if anyone had forgotten). however I read the novelization, there were references in there about the inability to use the force... more said would qualify as spoiler.

[Delvo]

So spoil... that's what I was asking for!

[C Of K]

Originally Posted by Delvo

if it was caused by some Dark Side trick he had learned, and it also explains why the Jedi sometimes seemed unable to effectively use it to their advantage in certain situations for no apparent reason.

My own theories on this subject are a little different than this. I don't believe it was a "trick" so to speak. At least not a trick of the force. I believe the jedi powers were diminished because they, as a whole, were acting in service to the dark lord of the sith himself. He had power over their actions and movements, and decisions in the war, and thus the force was unbalanced, giving his dark power a one up over them.

In short, the jedi were serving dark ends, but thought they were acting in all righteousness.

Originally Posted by Delvo

didn't even confirm or refute that it was Darth Sidius's doing!

If my theory is correct, then it wasn't necessarily his doing, at least not directly, and not his alone. The jedi, to some extent, knew the republic senate was corrupt and they continued to support and defend it, even to the point of war. Such actions on the part of the jedi would doubtlessly cause a powerful disturbance in the force, perhaps enough to unbalance it.

Originally Posted by Delvo

And, if Darth Sidius was behind it, doesn't that mean that the effect would be gone at the end of Episode VI when he was killed?

Again, if my theories are correct, the effect would have been "partially" gone by episode iv and completely gone by episode vi. I say "partially," because by episode iv there were no longer any jedi to unknowingly/semi-knowingly serve a darkside/corrupt government. And yet, the darkside was ruling over the galaxy by episode iv, so an imbalance of the force would remain.

Luke's powers were probably effected by this embalance, but until the Emperor's death, he had no experience by which to judge balance or imbalance.

[devilsgrin]

i always thought that the diminishing of the Jedi's ability to use the force that Yoda mentions was in relation to (specifically Yoda's him being the most powerful jedi) sensing movements, happenings and even eventualities - basically prescience, throughout the galaxy. It would reason that only the most intense uses of the force (or emotions of force users) would be detectable - even by Yoda - as seen in our green friend sensing Anakin slaughtering the Sandpeople.
It seemed in Ep III that he sensed the mass deaths of the Jedi after "66" is initiated. The deaths of the more powerful Jedi especially would have been sensed certainly.

The reason i believe this restriction on Jedi powers was caused is not because the Jedi are unwittingly aiding the Dark Side... but that the Force itself senses the ascendancy of the 'Sith' and as the Force is neither light or dark in itself, these concepts exist solely in the minds of others, it would seemingly be tuning into the dominant (or at least soon to be) Force users in the galaxy. the force is life afterall... and life is emotion. Jedi deny emotion, especially the strong ones, the Sith are the opposite, so their desires would influence the Force more strongly. Since the sith are secretive and sublte, a 'cloud' of secrecy could conceivably be distorting and blocking the senses of force users more attuned to a Jedi mind-set.

[C Of K]

Lets not forget, that the jedi unwittingly aiding the darkside was key in the eventual sith ascendancy. In this case, I believe that old saying, "a house divided against itself cannot stand," holds especially true.

Originally Posted by devilsgrin

the Force is neither light or dark in itself, these concepts exist solely in the minds of others, it would seemingly be tuning into the dominant (or at least soon to be) Force users in the galaxy.

The fact that people define the concepts of light and dark is precisely the reason the jedi powers were diminished, if my theory is correct. After all, the jedi are people... In their minds, they try to uphold a standard in the galaxy. During the clone wars, their efforts worked against that standard. As an order, they became more emotional, more like the sith, but they possibly continued to draw off the force as though they hadn't changed.

The opening crawl of episode 3 states that "There are heroes on both sides," and that "evil is everwhere." To me this means that the jedi were not completely in the right. This blurring of right and wrong undoubtabtly stirred up many strong emotions withing the jedi order. (the comics detailing the clone wars will support this, although the movies mostly focused on a few key characters)

Yoda's prescience was certainly diminished... What the movies does say is that the jedi had become weaker, and their oppenets would become many if this information came out. George leaves it for us to figure out for ourselves...

[Huttman]

So earlier I started writing a comment but ran out of time to proof read and make sure my thoughts came across clear (yeah, I do stuff like that), so I just logged off and disgarded my reply. So, I get back on and lo and behold, C of K made most of my points and references, but in a much more eloquent way. (Seriously, the opening crawl comment - don't you find it crowded in my head?) Good reference on the house divided thing, I think I was going to say of the Jedi something about good intentions and the road to hell.

In defining the concepts of light (presumably good) and dark (presumably bad), would not the very nature of the Force have to be good in order for all of existance not to crash in on itself - refering back to the house divided quote. Also, perhaps the lack of emotion might have been one of the Jedi's slow downfalls. I remember a discussion before that touched on a Jedi's not marrying, so maybe a balanced emotion with family and spouse is healthy and should not be banned. Regardless, I think the Jedi order got way too complacent over the centuries and evil was ripe for another chance at domination. Interesting stuff here, the story concepts here just keep getting bigger and bigger...

[devilsgrin]

Originally Posted by Huttman

In defining the concepts of light (presumably good) and dark (presumably bad), would not the very nature of the Force have to be good in order for all of existance not to crash in on itself - refering back to the house divided quote. Also, perhaps the lack of emotion might have been one of the Jedi's slow downfalls. I remember a discussion before that touched on a Jedi's not marrying, so maybe a balanced emotion with family and spouse is healthy and should not be banned. Regardless, I think the Jedi order got way too complacent over the centuries and evil was ripe for another chance at domination. Interesting stuff here, the story concepts here just keep getting bigger and bigger...

The Force seems to be a natural element of the Star Wars universe. Nature as we know is not good, nor is it evil. it exists in a measure of balance. Day and Night, Light and Dark, Fire and Water, Earth and Air, heck even Yin and Yang. None can exist without the others, without major disruptions occuring (catastrophic disruptions certainly)
Jedi seem to believe that this means that they must deny their emotions and maintain a personal balace - one of emotional neutrality. Whilst as we know the Sith embrace their emotions and see the Force as a weapon for their use, rather like one could use fire as a weapon.
Life = Change and Chaos. Order = Stagnation and Death. hence the necessity for a balance within the force. When tipped one way or the other it results in a strenthening of either Jedi or Sith.
Luckily for the galaxy at large, the Jedi with their far more pacifistic tendencies tend to be better for society to function with a measure of peace and justice.
The Sith when they take control seem to revel in the chaos that they unleash when they are in power - yet they usually seem to have larger goals than simple galactic domination. (not that galactic domination is simple, but that this is merely a by-product of their true goals - however obscure).
Yet i believe that without these Sith insurgencies and periods as dominant forces in the galaxy, the labouring beast that is the Republic would wither and die.

As to the Jedi contributing to both their own downfall and the fall of the Republic there can be no doubt. Mace Windu is the character that most perfectly encaptures the Jedi complacency and arrogance. "I...do not believe the Sith could have returned without our knowing."
The Force's imbalance toward the Dark and the Sith, could easily have subverted many jedi without even their knowing it... the less powerful the more easily, and the more powerful too. (the weaker ones being more susceptible and the stronger being more bombarded by the shift in the Force's alignment), all conspiring to make them both easier to manipulate and ultimately destroy.

[Huttman]

Originally Posted by devilsgrin

The Force seems to be a natural element of the Star Wars universe. Nature as we know is not good, nor is it evil. it exists in a measure of balance. Day and Night, Light and Dark, Fire and Water, Earth and Air, heck even Yin and Yang. None can exist without the others, without major disruptions occuring (catastrophic disruptions certainly)

There is a very interesting show that has been on the history channel about Star Wars, about it's legacy, and it was called just that. It goes into the mystic elements of the Force and how Mr. Lucas came up with the idea for it. I agree, it seems to be a natural element in their universe, a general nature of sorts, non-descript enough for practically anyone enjoying these films to be able to associate with it and even apply it to their own beliefs, ideas, and understanding of how things work. Star Wars does not, however, fully explain the purpose of the Force or where it comes from (besides Yoda/Obi-Wan saying generally life creates it). That is one of the aspects of the mass appeal Star Wars has had in the world and why we are talking about it now. The above quote I agree with, balance has to be maintained for order. I think we can all agree the Jedi, staying within their proper bounds, have the duty and right to stop the Sith. On a personal level, I associate light and dark with good and bad, and in that regard, I do believe good can exist perfectly without the bad, you do not need it to balance the good out, good can flourish on its own. It can be difficult to see this because the jeanie has been out of the bottle for so long one might find it impossible for it to be any different, I guess it's called faith for a reason, and Star Wars does not go that far into it.

I've said this before, I would love to see the original cause for this imbalance in the Star Wars universe when some Jedi first splintered off from their true course and why. It would add even more depth to this incredibly facinating story. Thank you for your insightful input, devilsgrin, I really enjoy thinking along these lines.

[C Of K]

Originally Posted by Huttman

(Seriously, the opening crawl comment - don't you find it crowded in my head?)

You do have a lot of ideas floating around, Huttman and are quite nisightful

Like this idea.

Originally Posted by Huttman

I do believe good can exist perfectly without the bad, you do not need it to balance the good out, good can flourish on its own. It can be difficult to see this because the jeanie has been out of the bottle for so long

I suppose it is concievable that because we've never experienced "good" without "bad" such a reality would be rather impossible for us to invision.

Although I guess it would take a certain, though in some ways healthy(?) arrogance for me to call such a reality impossible. (silently I've learned not to rule out any possibility, but to take little for a certainty.)

[Huttman]

To tell you the truth, I'm really not 100% sure what "good" is, but living in this, a galaxy not too far away, I have seen quite clearly what "bad" is. As a matter of fact, evil (selfish motives) seems to be everywhere. I suppose if the motives of so many were not quite so self-centered, the light side might start to be more abundant.


In the Star Wars universe, I'm sure not all the Jedi were so full of themselves that they could not see the forest through the trees, but their council of leaders sure had the wool pulled over their eyes. I also can't really fault them for engaging in the Clone Wars, they really had little choice, similar to the allies, the U.S. specifically, in WWII. What else could one do with this monsterous problem growing and expanding, taking over world by world, or country by country. I'm sure the Force would judge each one according to their actions and heart, as I'm sure that is the case for a more reality based stage.

But again, the Force is explained very generically, but everything else in Star Wars really adds up for me that Lucas is on the right track for something. It is explained that to combat the Sith, love and pure motives works. A selfless, pure, complete love such as a son for his father. What did Luke have to go on to believe there was any redeemable quality in Vader? Just hope and love. It seems to me that Luke was one of the only Jedi who really believed in what the Force was really all about, so to me the Force might not be so generic, and that makes me enjoy these movies all the more.

[Huttman]

I feel a tremor in the Force---wait, no, it's just an after-thought (and my stomach). I find it interesting how it is said, 'the will of the Force'. Qui-Gon was always talking about the will of the Force, but I can't remember if any other Jedi refered to it that way. Oh Qui-Gon, you were such a rebel before your time. I suppose I can't see how a natural element can have a 'will' of anything. Just food for thought...(o.k. - time to eat now. What? The milks not blue!?)