SPOILERS: A New Theory on Jon

[red_temple]

Okay, we have all heard the old R+L=J theory, but a friend of mine from Cleveland has suggested a new one that is fairly hot in his discussion group:

R+L=J. Earth-shattering, isn't it? Serioulsy, it is, when you consider:

R=ROBERT. L and J remain the same as usual.

Now, I didn't ask my buddy for any specifics, but I did take it as food for thought. I'd like to hear any opinions that this forum may have on the subject. On the surface (without thumbing thru AGOT or any of the other novels), the theory seems plausible. Does the story still work if this were the case?

[hodor]

Interesting notion. I would have thought Robert would have acted differently when he was at the Stark residents in reference to Jon. Plus there was the thing regarding the Baratheon gene pool and how the offsprings always took after the Baratheon side. I don't put too much stock in this theory despite it being an interesting one. I can't find too many ways in which the story wouldn't work under this theory; however, that is only natural unless GRRM was wishing his books to be predictable.

[red_temple]

Thinking about this a little bit myself, I'd have to ask the obvious question: why would Lyanna want Ned to keep the birth of Jon a secret from Robert, if Jon were Robert's son? The only naswer I can come up with is that Lyanna eventually ended up hating Robert, and did not want him to raise her son. So she made Ned promise to raise Jon as his own. This would explain Robert being in the dark about Jon. And Lyanna hating Robert is not very much of a stretch etither, considering what a womanizer he was - Robert was more into "warring and whorring," as he said in AGOT - very much NOT Lyanna's type.

[hodor]

I have though about all of these things but, yet, I just still don't buy it. Too many other subplots involved that explain those things and it just doesn't work right imho with the series. It is an interesting thought but yet I just can't put stock in Jon (who is a very important character now) as a Baratheon (which is a dead family per say now) as a Baratheon/Stark. If, when we do know, I end up eating my words, I will admit it; however, I must say that this theory is completely non plausible as I foresee the future of the series.

[red_temple]

I agree with you completely, 100%, Hodor. I just thought that it was an interesting take on the situation. And (R)obert fit so nicely in the equation R+L=J. The beauty is only in the algebra this time, I suppose.....

[hodor]

Yes, it is a very interesting theory to ponder.

[AryaUnderfoot]

I'm not sold on that one, the main reason being that Lyanna would have no real reason to beg for the baby to be a secret. It was too early to fear that Cersei would do away with the child, as we all know she would, being an evil wench. Unless, of course, Lyanna feared that any one of Robert's enemies might seek to kill Jon. It is interesting. Not likely, but interesting.

[Raven]

I could see reasons why Lyanna would not want Robert to know Jon was his son.

For one thing, she would know that Robert would make Jon his heir, which would put Jon's life at significant risk, since anyone Robert married (and he would have to marry) would want Jon out of the way so that their own children could inherit. Imagine what Cersei and Tywin would have done if they knew Jon was heir.

But, the timelines don't work out on this theory. Robert and Lyanna are not together at the right time. Jon is born right at the end of the Rebellion, which lasted more than a year. Lyanna vanished (we assume with Rhaegar) before it began. Robert's whereabouts for all that time are known. He could not have been Jon's father.

[Silk]

My own current theory on Jon is this, Rhaegar and his wife apparently had a son (sorry the name escapes me right now) who was apparently killed along with all the other Targaryen's. But what if the child wasn't killed? What if this child is Jon and Lyanna begged Ned to protect the son of the man she loved?

Dany had a vision of Rhaegar and the mother of his son giving the baby a name; it was a tender scene not the kind of thing you see a husband and wife doing if the bloke is in love with someone else an dthey are having a child together.

Still missing parts of thw story I know but an interesting thought

[Raven]

I'm going to get a reputation on this board as a killjoy, but...

No, that doesn't work either. Aegon, Rhaegar and Elia's child, has been suggested as being Jon before. This is especially on the grounds that, when directly asked about Aegon and Rhaenys' fate, George replied that Rhaenys was definitely dead and refused to go into any further detail.

So it's widely believed that the child killed by Gregor Clegane wasn't Aegon - not least because the body couldn't be easily identified, since Gregor smashed its head open.

But Aegon was at least a year and probably eighteen months older than Jon. As teenagers, the difference wouldn't be that noticeable, but as a baby... there is no way Ned could have passed off a child of nearly two as being his bastard of a few months of age.

[red_temple]

Originally Posted by Raven

I'm going to get a reputation on this board as a killjoy, but...

.

That's OK, Raven. You wisdom is needed! You have an excellent grasp of the details, so keep us in line and we'll keep challenging you.

[Raven]

Temple, nice of you to say so, but it's largely because I've seen these theories before.

[Jinglehopper]

I too think that the Robert+Lyanna=Jon theory is probably incorrect. More than the proofs supplied here, it doesn't really seem to fit in with Martin's work. Of course that doesn't mean we can't talk about it!

Here's a crazy far-fetched theory. When Ned finds out about Cersei's incest with Jaime in AGOT, he doesn't really seem that disgusted. He's only concerned with Joffrey being illegitimate and therefore not an heir to the throne.

What if, and here's the big one, what if Jon is Ned and Lyanna's son? They seem to have had a strong relationship that went beyond mere brother and sister. It may fall apart if we think about timelines, as Ned's whereabouts were as well known as Robert's during the rebellion. It would certainly explain Lyanna wanting him to keep a secret.

Thoughts?

[hodor]

This is an interesting thought to ponder. However, I can't see this being Ned's "style". Though we know little about him before the series began, there are several things that could discredit this theory as well. The timelines being the biggest.

[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by Jinglehopper

Thoughts?

I "think" I'm going to throw up.