How many Valheru? *SPOILER*

[Conan]

When I read that the enemy was a bunch of Valheru spirits or something (don't really know how it works please explain) it considerably lessened my awe for the enemy, made him less powerful. Am I underestimating the Valheru's power and How many Valheru were there?

[dekket]

I don't believe that there were very many Valheru at any one time, as they spent much of there lives killing each other (with the victor absorbing the fallens power).

So while there might have only been a few score (maybe a couple of hundred at most) individuals, between them (as the Enemy) they contained the power of the entire race (missing only the power of Ashen-Shugar (the most powerful of the race, and the only one not to take part in the creation of the Lifestone and the Chaos Wars) and of the Valheru that had fallen to the (more numerous) Dasati when they accidently invaded the second circle).

Valheru could defeat DreadLords in one on one confrontations.

When the blood lust was on them, the Dragon Host raged throughout the universe, and fought against and destroyed ever other primordial race they encounter.
Only the Aal survived against the Valheru.

The Dragon Host even slew gods. Some gods even eliminated magic from their world in order to save it (well, they converted magic to a solid crystalline form), in an effort to frighten away the Valheru, rather than face the Dragon Host directly.

While the Chaos Wars, which shook the universe, were mainly about the gods fighting between themselves to determine their place in the scheme of things, a significant part seemed to be the battle of the Valheru against these 'new beings'. And when a Valheru was slain in the Chaos wars, its power/spirit rejoined the conflict (rather than just dying and passing into some 'afterlife'. Hence no Dragon Lord resides in the halls of Lims Kragma).

While the Valheru were unable to slay the younger gods of Midkemia, they were enough of a threat that the Gods banished them from the Universe (of Midkemia).

The Dragon Host, in their rage of being exiled, then went on to destroy entire universes, causing uncounted races to flee to new worlds (Kelewan and Midkemia amoungst them) to escape.
Humans that came to Kelewan, across the golden bridge, named the force that had destroyed their worlds (i.e. the Dragon Host) the Enemy, for they had no better name for the Valheru.

The Valheru are a magical race, almost immortal, that even after being defeated by the Gods of their world, and even in death, still had to be exiled to another universe, which they then destroyed, is more powerful than any vague idea about the Enemy.

There was so little detail about the Enemy, that some Black Robes of the Assembly even thought that the Enemy was no big deal, something that the Assembly would be able to defeat. Assuming that they actually believed in the 'myth'.

I would say you were underestimating the power of the Valheru.
And also the power of Macros, who was able to survive against the Enemy.
But then again the Gods of Midkemia were lending a (hidden) hand.

[Conan]

I wonder if theyll come back in the Chaoswar saga.

[TheGreenDragon]

I think that they will return, as the Chaos Wars were the wars between Valheru and Gods.

[dekket]

The Chaos Wars was mainly the gods fighting amoungst themselves to carve out their domains in the universe. The Valheru's struggle against the gods was just incidentle.

[Conan]

Youre right was between the gods, but the Valheru still played a large role, if it wasnt for them many gods would still be alive.

[TheGreenDragon]

Yeah, most of the Gods died in the Chaos Wars. Originally there were 100 I think, now there's like 20?

[Peeves]

Who knows maybe the Older Gods and the Valheru where winning.
I did read somewhere that Kalkin God of Thieves, the Trickster basically tricked the entire universe into believing that the younger Gods had won, when maybe they where on the verge of losing. I'm not sure do, it all had become a bit vague with time, and feist ain't helping, with him changing things every now and then.

[darkfox]

Feist never revealed how many Dragon Lords there were, though they did name a handful of them that were important for the story.

He did reveal how many (and the names of) the Greater Gods, but left many of the lesser Gods out of the roll-call. There was never a number of lesser Gods revealed, though it was hinted that it was over a hundred and there presently being less than half of that.

Not sure where you read that KiwiBird, but that's not correct. The remaining lesser and greater gods banded together to lock away the Mad God who started the war.

[Morvai_]

The Valheru wont return now, after the lifestone was undone by Calis at the end of the serpentwar saga (well book 3 technically) the remaining part of them was given back to the world, a large part of the valheru in Tomas was ripped from him as it was from Calis, and while Tomas still has a legacy from them as does Calis its weaker than it was before.

@Dekket you are a very knowledgable person lolz, i couldnt remember all of that near word for word about the valheru.

[dekket]

Thanks Morvai.
I have the annoying habit of remembering stuff I read, but tending to forgot important things (such as needing to do such and such).

[Morvai_]

LOL, i know the feeling, whats your favourite feist novel/character?

[Peeves]

Originally Posted by darkfox

Feist never revealed how many Dragon Lords there were, though they did name a handful of them that were important for the story.

He did reveal how many (and the names of) the Greater Gods, but left many of the lesser Gods out of the roll-call. There was never a number of lesser Gods revealed, though it was hinted that it was over a hundred and there presently being less than half of that.

Not sure where you read that KiwiBird, but that's not correct. The remaining lesser and greater gods banded together to lock away the Mad God who started the war.

Like i said feist has a habit of contradicting himself. It was definitely mentioned (i think in the presence of nakor) that the current situation is no more than a grand trick by some god, that deceived everyone into believing the situation as mentioned by you. It was during one of those random supposedly grand and difficult too understand conversations where they ponder about the universe as it is.

[AshenShugar]

Originally Posted by darkfox

[...]

Not sure where you read that KiwiBird, but that's not correct. The remaining lesser and greater gods banded together to lock away the Mad God who started the war.

When Kalkin was revealing to Pug all those "secrets" after Pug destroyed Kelewan and the Dread trying to invade the First Circle, he mentioned that infusing the Valheru armor with Ashen-Shugar's spirit/memories and the temporal "paradox" that resulted was his doing, and he said he did it because he and his god pals were losing. He added essentially, and I'm paraphrasing, "What do you do when you're losing? You cheat, and who better to do it than the god of thieves?"

He cheated in several ways, among which are these:

1. By messing around outside the First Circle (remember Macros' memories were had by a Dasati).

2. Messing with time (Tomas influencing Ashen-Shugar, Ashen-Shugar influencing Tomas).

And my own personal guess (could be LUCKY and therefore a spoiler), Kalkin's aim with giving Tomas the Valheru power was just as much about using Tomas to convince Ashen-Shugar to NOT get involved in the Chaos War as it was to give Tomas the means to protect Midkemia, out of fear that one more Valheru, and the most powerful at that, might either tip the balance or cause significantly more problems. After all, the gods of Midkemia and the Valheru both came from the universe itself (if I recall, the gods in Midkemia arose from the essence of the slaughtered masses that the Valheru killed, whereas previously there was only the "Gods" or Order and Chaos)