Martin, Sexuality and Age (Formerly, 'Is George...?')

[JDP]

Originally Posted by Rahl Windsong

All I can really say about a thread like this is, when you have no concrete evidence about something as horrific as accussing someone of being a pedophile, then please do not go there

I've got to agree with Rahl; given that this is just about the vilest accusation you can make against someone, it's entirely inappropriate as a (hopefully) flippant thread title on a public forum. Thanks for changing it, Cul.

[Wiggum]

But let's be a bit realistic.

It doesn't take the Middle Ages for someone to have sex at 13.

I lost my virginity at the same age, whilst being a shy boy that ran into a fairly aggresive, and attractive girl of the same age.

If people didn't engage in the activity at that tender period I wouldn't have my mother (Grandma got preggers late in her 13th year of life).

I would be surprised if I'm the only one on this forum that has personal or familial experience along those lines, and at that age.


Is it really the age? Or is it the relationship with Drogo?

Or is it an overflow from the dislike of her brother, and his treatment of her that we tend to put on Drogo in relationship to their relationship?

EDITED TO ADD:

Whilst I did find the consumation of the marriage between Dany and Drogo unsavory, I don't think you can judge their relationship by that one night, and if someone is going to judge Martin's intentions by their relationship you have to look at the whole thing.

Dany and Drogo made one of the most compelling romantic pairings in the books, and an interesting, happy and strong couple.

[Connavar]

Originally Posted by Werthead

And the rest. Exactly the same criticisms Connavar levels against GRRM could be levelled against Gemmell who has very similar things going on his books. Andromache was having an affair with another woman whilst still a young teenager in The Troy Trilogy for example, as well as that specific plotline you point out. He seems to get a free pass on that, for some reason.

It's also worth mentioning Daeneys' psychological reaction to the situation with Drogo. Dany has lived in the shadow of her brother, an arrogant, bitter, bullying thug who teeters on the edge of madness, who habitually insults and beats Dany, belittles her and blames her for their mother's death. For fourteen years, he has held the power of life and death over Dany and treated her like a commodity to be traded for his own advancement. When Drogo turns out not to be the psychopathic barbarian she was expecting, Dany is able to exert power and influence over Drogo through several areas, including her bravery, her desire to fit in with the Dothraki, but also her sexuality. Gaining dominance in the relationship with Drogo (and Dany clearly has the upper hand in the relationship from early on) also means gaining the upper hand over her brother. Dany also has a hugely ambitious and somewhat arrogant streak in her: she believes she is the answer to Westeros' problems, that she is the only one who cares about the common people and that she would make a better ruler than Viserys (although frankly Dolorous Edd would make a better ruler than Viserys). Jorah Mormont helps build up this latter opinion as well.

So that scene can be seen in a different light: Dany realising that Drogo is her key to first escaping her brother, and then subduing and ultimately eliminating him so she can take the throne of Westeros, and she will do what it takes to achieve that end. And so the duality of her character when compared to Cersei's - one of the most intriguing comparisons in the series - begins.

I havent read Troy so i cant talk about it.

In Rigante it was difference the young nymp he is talking about was cheating with another boy of her age. She was free to choose to have sex with who she wanted, she wasnt sold to a much older man.

With Dany it was cause how she was sold like she was nothing by her brother to a man like that and the sex scene. It was how she felt and not only the age,sex thing. I was talking about only up to that point of her story.



Scalem X

You can read in books you couldnt get in thread that i only forced to read more of the book cause my brother loves the series. Usually we have the same taste in books except in Epic fantasy.

[Wiggum]

Originally Posted by Connavar

With Dany it was cause how she was sold like she was nothing by her brother to a man like that and the sex scene. It was how she felt and not only the age,sex thing. I was talking about only up to that point of her story.

And this is what I brought up in my post above.

A lot of the feelings towards the consumation of Dany and Drogo have a lot to do with her brother, and how he dealt with her as a piece of chattel.

[Eulalia]

Yes indeed, Wiggum! It is strange how society seem to have amnesia about that.

Its also true that in our society young teens are not really mature enough to make good decisions, handle their emotions, choose a good partner, support themselves or have children, even if they can physically have sex. And then, some of us have a long academic apprenticeship ahead. We also value marriage for love. Having this taboo is sensible for us. Some of those issues were different in the middle ages, especially depending on class. And in a fantasy book, the rules are different again.

Getting one's knickers in a bunch over this stuff in a fantasy book, and acting as if a writer experiences everything he writes about, seems silly. If the writer is good, as GRRM is, then sexual experience will have an impact or future character development and choices.

I've heard Richard Adams was into rabbits...shocking!(LOL)!

[TK-421]

And Lord knows what Goodkind would be into....chickens maybe

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Not to be trite....but this is singly the worst thread Ive ever read on this forum. Words escape me.

Enjoy

[TK-421]

Egg!!!!! We missed you around these parts lately but of course you did not miss the target with your assessment. I have not bothered to read most of it as the title just put me off. Wonder what GRRM would think of such a thread.

You're back stateside. Good for you.

[Eulalia]

Who knows? GRRM seems like he would be an earthy pretty normal guy, a man of the world, not easily shocked, and able to defend himself. He uses...the sarcasm!

I liked how he made two of the truly creepy guys like Joffrey and Viserys, into obviously despicable characters and bumped them off pretty fast.

Sansa, Margaery and Arya are still maids, against all odds. Tyrion being gentlemanly about Sansa's tender state.

I think making bands of soldiers, who swear drink and whore is pretty much realism!

Anyway thanks to GRRM for the bravery in giving us varied complicated delightful and complete characters, no matter if he is going to shock the young or the naive sometimes. And attract wrath from certain elements.

To him I would say, love your books, of course.

[Boaz]

Eulalia, You make in interesting comparison between Dany and Sansa and therefore by extension a comparison between Drogo and Tyrion.

Despite Dany's young age, her wedding was real. Any ruler's marriage will have (should have) a high degree of political weight behind it and Drogo's marriage to the last of the Targaryens was no exception. Dany brought Valyrian blood (this is probably more important than we know), a royal background, a claim to the Seven Kingdoms, and a very martial heritage to her husband. I get the feeling that the Dothraki have a rich oral tradition, but that the details of dynastic legitimacy are lost upon them. Drogo accurately chose Dany to provide this for his son... The Stallion That Mounts The World.

Anyway, it was a real marriage in my opinion. Drogo provided Dany with protection and freedom while she gave prestige to his son. They were also attracted to each other. Even though Dany would never have chosen Drogo at her age, she commited herself to the marriage.

In contrast, Tyrion's marriage to Sansa was a sham. They both knew it and so did the entire court. Sansa had been betrayed, beaten, shamed, and threatened continuously by the family of her groom. By comparison, Dany's torture came from her own family... Drogo was her escape. There was no escape for Sansa, the marriage only trapped her further.

As Dontos told Sansa, the Lannisters only wanted her claim. She was as doomed as Edmure Tully. As soon as she produced a son, the Lannisters would kill her.

On the other hand, Tyrion is the one Lannister (at least before Jaime's maiming) who desires a normal life, a loving wife, and a happy little family. He tried to be gentle and patient with Sansa... he never forced himself upon her. Yet she could never forgive or trust him as a Lannister. Sandor, Joffrey, and Cersei mistreated her in all sorts of ways, so she never commited herself to the marriage. She ran at the first opportunity... not that I blame her at all.

I seem to recall Martin once remarking that Tyrion, of the characters in ASOIAF, is most like him. His mind is his weapon. If you show him a kindness, he's extremely loyal. People dismiss him at first because he's not physically impressive. He's very imaginative. Etc. If Tyrion is a dim reflection of Martin (and I know we can take comparisons, metaphors, allegories too far) and since Tyrion never consumated his marriage with Sansa, then can we not assume that Martin is also a gentle man with the best interests for children in his heart?

By the way, what ever happened to the person who started this thread? I don't think he's posted again on this subject.

[Eulalia]

Boaz, thanks for your analysis! Yes, I think you have great points about what can (perhaps) be inferred from the Tyrion character. I suspect GRRM to be guilty of being loyal, gentle, compassion to children, and wanting a relationship in which he is loved for himself (well some guys don't care), as you put so well.

I think Tryion maybe carries out his passions, maybe farther than people would, but the feelings are all understandable, and in a nasty age. (Tysha, Tywin, Shae) Good thing it's a fantasy!

I think GRRM has a good point of view of who is screwing up morally or who is ambiguous and nobody seems off the hook.

Even Jaime, had the cajones to bump off Aerys (evil beyond just about anyone else in the book), and now he's a very cynical kingslayer and oathbreaker.

Is there is a better thread for relationship, or ethics discussion so we can dump the sensational entry?!

[Rainswept]

I just want to throw in my two cents by saying that I applaud the sexuality in ASoIF. I'm a big fan of fantasy, but I find precious little of it written for (mature) adults. A large portion of fantasy books are very very prudish.

Sex is a part of life, and sex with girls barely old enough to menstruate was at one time an extremely common practice. Remember that in the dark ages people were lucky to live past 35, if they waited till they were mature, well rounded adults before they started having kids, they would not have lived long enough to raise them!

I think the sex not only adds to the realism of the story, it adds worlds of depth and believability to the characters. Another author I love supposedly once said "If you want me to tell you about a person's character, show me who they are sleeping with" and I find that to be true in spades in ASoIF, as well as the already mentioned great insights you get into the characters by being inside their heads after sex.

Plus, it's fun to read!

[the smiling weirwood]

Originally Posted by Eulalia

Margaery...is [sic]... still maids, against all odds.

I don't know if I would go so far as to make such a claim as that...

Anyway, so this thread is extremely interesting. However, one viewpoint I have not seen espoused, and which I feel as if is my place to do so, being a debauched libertine myself, is this: maybe she liked it.

I'm not condoning that kind of forced intimacy, age difference or no. But to be honest, she is a becoming a young woman. At that age everyone feels the first blush of desire. I can't fathom her motivation that first night, but is told later that she enjoys her role as Khaleesi, the marriage bed included.

Earlier Teresa raised an interesting point. That being the inherent and manifest wrongness in such an act between an adult and someone I cannot truly call somewhat other than a child despite her swiftly blossoming womanhood. I have a question for you in response. Would you say the same if the youth was a boy? How would you view a situation in which the youth sought out the adult? I don't say these things to cause discord but to raise the question of is this something we can call an absolute? If it is, then was Dany's complicity in it count for nothing? Does it lessen the crime or not? Is Drogo's sin against Dany or all women? I am loathe to call her a child, she is not. But neither is she a woman.

I don't think Dany should have gone through that ordeal. Any of it. But she did, and who knows how things would have turned out. In other words, to attempt to sum up a response that has become a derailment of epic proportions and in multiple directions, is that something you can't live with and move on despite? I think there are worse things that can happen to someone.

[daisybee]

I am quite surprised by the varying degrees of reaction in this thread.

I read the scene, felt extremely uncomfortable doing so, and remember thinking, tricky topic for a man. Our imaginations only go so far, and I think the scene suffered for it.

That is a personal opinion.

I think GRRM is a great writer, but am perfectly within my rights, as anyone else to not enjoy every single sentence or scene the man commits to paper.

The world he evokes may be heavily influenced by a historical period we can all recognise in part, but it is his world, a fantasy world, so I don't really think saying "well we all know it happened so what's the issue" is really relevant.

All I'll say is, there is a reason that it is illegal now- so the fact that the thread has devolved into the maturity of Dany (still a fictional character folks!) and the differing interpretations of the scene as rape etc, actually fascinates me. For quite a few people, a 13 year old in fiction is still 13.

I know twelve year olds in real life who have had to deal with a lot, and have grown in maturity far quicker as a result. Girls can menstruate from as early as ten or eleven, but that still does not make them ready for sex.

The guilt and shame children carry as a result of such abuse, is a complicated thing; girls and boys in their very early teens can have a physical response to an act committed upon them, which is why so many victims blame themselves, take responsibility for the abuse, are so easily convinced at times that THEY wanted it to happen.

Despite this thread being about a fictional characters response/feelings, I felt I had to say that, because much has been said of Drogo's gentleness, her "complicitness".

Please. The story is what it is, and a child was given to an older man for him to use as he saw fit. It ended up being a "match" but still. Dude could have waited, couldn't he?

Actually, not a lot worse can happen to someone.

Peace.

[Qhorin Halfhand]

Originally Posted by Connavar

I havent read Troy so i cant talk about it.

In Rigante it was difference the young nymp he is talking about was cheating with another boy of her age. She was free to choose to have sex with who she wanted, she wasnt sold to a much older man.

You're wrong, actually. The character in question stopped random men on the road, the first being a man much older than her who took advantage of her fright, had sex with her and then paid her off. She did it scores of times with men who were well past middle age and each time she was paid. At least five times, is my recollection of the amount of times she had to abort her pregnancies and still she couldn't stop because the author provided her with an uncontrollable NEED for sex (ie nymphomania, I wasn't just being colourful when I used that word). In the end when Connavar is mauled by the bear, she marries someone who was already legally an adult, I believe somewhere in his early 20s. Obviously this is not something countenanced by today's society.

So thats...paedophilia, underage prostitution, abortion, nymphomania. The sword of truth series also contains all sorts of sexual information, and I am sure I could think of others.

I am not levelling this as an attack, I am just trying to put perspective on the issue at hand. Lots of fantasy series deal with issues of sex, rape, they blur lines of conventially accepted ages of adulthood and so on but once they have been raised and the effect of shocking the reader has occurred, they're often not dealt with leaving the reader with little insight into the effects of such events on the character's lives. In the specific example of the Rigante series, the character's motivation is explained (her younger sister's death) but no real resolution is effected. Her life continues as it is into adulthood.

Martin includes the same themes but writing them realistically make them a part of the story and a realistic development in the personality of the characters. Dany's relationship with Drogo, while shocking considering their ages, is dealt with quite deeply showing the emotions and effects on the individual involved. Similarly with Tyrion, the vivid remembrances of watching a room full of soldiers have their way with his wife isn't just referenced while skimping on the details. We get a clearer picture of the exact events and we understand the emotional torment that Tyrion receives from it.

Ultimately, writing about things like this realistically and in depth isn't indicative of some kind of sickness on the author's part, but on the author's desire to realistically represent the fact that life isn't rosy. Characters, like all human beings real or imagined, go through things which aren't always nice and within the realm of modern morals. These things, for better or worse, are part of those peoples lives and the effects they have can be seen in ASOIAF.

I'm coming off slightly fanboyish and I am not intending to make it sound like Martin is a genius author where everyone falls short, but consider for a moment why a lot of authors and a lot of readers consider it necessary to close their eyes to the realities of things like sex and its effect on people, the consideration of which could actually be of benefit to a lot of people, while still happy to include or tolerate the CONCEPTS of sex in a lot of fiction as long as its all hands-off, don't ask don't tell. And why we're so happy to countenance violence in our fiction that its never even raised as a small issue. Are our priorities really that messed up?