how and why do we create languages ?

[magician2magici]

well .. this is simple question of mine .. i want to create new languages , but i frankly don't know how , can any one help me with some instructions here plz ?

and why do we take the challenge of doing such big work in our story ?

salam,
m2m

[Malloriel]

I'm sure there are several different approaches to creating a language. The simplest I can think of would be to simply create phrases or individual words that fit within the story rather than undertake the monumental task of creating your own language.

If you're going to make an entire language, though, an understanding of grammar in several forms is, I think, very important. Understanding the keys to using English grammar is important for a writer anyway, but at least analysing other languages and their grammatical structure gives key insights into how you could put together your own language. There are bits and pieces obviously common within language itself and knowing those you can find the form that fits best.

I would recommend picking your rules and sticking with them, especially if you want it to be a language people can eventually learn. I also recommend not basing it off of English, since we have so many exceptions, questionable pronunciations, words adopted from other languages in whole or in part that defy the rules as well, so something like French is a good example of a majority of the rules being solid. For pronunciation, I'd also avoid modelling after Gaelic ^_^

Other than that it's word building, an act in and of itself that can be terribly fun.

As for the why . . . I think for me, and for many others, the inspiration for it comes from Tolkien, who himself studied language extensively. There again, though, it's all part of world building. It's not necessary that every race have its own language, but then they might not all speak the common or trade tongue either. And if you DO have their language all worked out, grammatical structure and all, you can then give them a little more flavour. Example being not simply the implication of a strange accent, but to completely change the way they approach the grammar of the trade tongue. Using their words casually in such a way where you don't come across as using the language SIMPLY because it exists, but because it's a part of the race itself.

I think the best way to approach building a language isn't to build it for the sake of building it (though there ISN'T anything wrong with that activity), because if what you're proud of is the language more than the story it can reflect obviously in your writing. When it's a casual thing, say:

“Whatever happens, just be careful. You’re the only family I ever had, and the only person in the world who believes me.” He laughed desperately, casting tear-slick eyes upward. “Svint, Kale, I don’t even believe me.”

Kale smiled almost fondly at the curse and reaching into his pocket withdrew a small package wrapped in white.

--

A tiny excerpt from my own piece. Now, we know Svint isn't English. I've implied it isn't even the trade tongue by using the old italics tactic to set it apart. We don't really need to know the exact meaning since Kale's thoughts let us know before we wonder too long that Svint is a swear of some kind. Knowing the exact nature and meaning might be useful, but not necessary. It's also, in my opinion, a casual use of a language in the world.

Also in this case, and possibly helpful to you, is how you view the role of your language in your world, aside from an integral part of any specific race. For this one, Maeyenin, it's a bit like French and German in English where many words are adopted whole or in part (coup de gras, cliché, house, etc. During the Regency era, especially in England, it was much more common to find French thrown into everyday conversations. It was very much a Frenglish situation.), which is more or less a way of saying that the words within Maeyenin are very frequently used in casual situations and when used there isn't confusion over the meaning of the words.

If you want ways to explain how the language works, that's when it's helpful to have those characters who've never been exposed to it before and someone who uses it fluently to explain things. I think the smoothest situations are those that involve some sort of big ceremony or some such high to-do where the outsider knows absolutely nothing here and has a translator, just try not to overload the reader by giving them a block of foreign language and then a block of translation. You want to keep the tempo of the story in mind as well. So it can be a great big ol' balancing act, but if it's what in your heart you're set to do then it will never feel like a trial.

^_^ That's my take on it, anyway.

[Mattastic]

I think original languages fulfil all sorts of roles in a work of fiction. They add depth, they highlight a change of culture, they allow some characters to talk while others are unaware of their meaning, and of course they allow a rather more believable naming system than just hitting the keyboard and then deleting letters where appropriate.

But most of all, it's just fun. I myself am quite fond of creating neographies, or artificial scripts, but of course they don't tend to make it into prose. But I do tend to use certain words or phrases where they fit. As a rule, I tend to avoid using invented words in amongst a block of English text in order to show that the characters are not speaking English. I find this to be poor practice in general. It always bothers me when everything someone says is perfectly translated for the reader's convinience, except for swear words, measures or objects. Especially when each of those (almost inevitably) directly translates into an English equivalent.

For my stories, I tend to mostly use language for names and loan words that have been adopted into English (and vice versa). However, if a character isn't speaking English, even if they're just using a three word sentance, I tend not to include the text.

Anyway, enough of that. Here's the method I personally use to create a language. It's a quick an dirty method, which produces believable results (if used sparingly, as above) but doesn't require the years of work that producing a complete language takes:

-- First, pick five consanants. These don't necessarily have to be sounds we have single letters for in our language. Check out the the IPA for a list of nearly all the sounds that can be pronounced by humans. These will be the most commonly used sounds in the language. In English these are T, N, S, R and H, by letter frequency.
-- Don't always give into the temptation to pick the highest scoring Scrabble letters just to make your language seem "more alien". "Xejuz" certainly does sound alien, but there's no reason why "Chaijerey" can't fulfil the same function. Be varied
-- Now pick five other consanants. They'll be your five least frequently used letters. If some sounds don't fit, throw them out altogether.
-- Now do the same thing with vowels, only pick three instead of five. Remember that phonetically, there are more than just five vowels. Check the IPA again. Throw out a few vowels if necessary.
-- Write up a list of ten of twenty commonly used words: "apple", "king", "shoes", etc. Assign the sounds as appropriate. Try and get in twice as many "common consanants as any others, and half as many "uncommon" consanants as any others. Assign vowels as you feel is best, but try and keep to the preferences you've outlined.
-- Never use apostrophes unless they have a grammatical function.
-- Choose a basic sentance structure. In English, it's OVS -- "Cows eat grass" -- but this can be re-ordered into any permutation, so long as it remains consistant in your language. Ignore more complex rules unless you understand them (which I don't).
-- Decide how to conjugate verbs. Just set up some basic rules for how words end and begin. Remember that common verbs like "to go" and "to do" are often irregular and have really stupid rules (or a lack thereof), so try not to make them fit the rules.
-- Voilà! You have a language good enough for short basic sentances, names and exclaimations. It's not Tolkein, but it functions.

I hope this helps in some way.

[Marky Lazer]

If you want to create a language I suggest to go study Philology... There are so many aspects you have to consider when inventing a language. It's not just making up some words. If you want a language, you want it to be as real as possible. The best imaginary language(s) were made up, I think, by J.R.R. Tolkien. He was a philolgist, and a good one, too. You need to make up grammar, pronounciation, lexicom. It's going to be a huge task, even when you only need a couple of phrases.

Think about sentences structure. Object before or after verb? Stuff like that. In English, why don't you pronounce the "ie" in dies and diet in the same way, or the "ea" in break and bleak, or low and how? On the other hand, why does kitchen rhyme with lichen? All these things have a reason (I halfy know why, but that doesn't matter).

The longer I think about it, the more I can come up with: verb forms that are formal and not (the difference between "du" and "Sie" in German, for example), irregular verbs (why is is "lost" and not "losted"?), loan words (ever knew assassin comes from Arabic?), etc, etc.

If you want to create a language don't expect to do so in a year. It's going to take a lot of time and you have to ask yourself whether you want to invest all that time.

[Urlik]

double post

[Urlik]

depending on how you are writing the story, you could use Heinlein's method (as used in Glory Road)
have the characters speak in the invented language, then explain that all future use of that language will be translated into English for the benefit of the reader and that that language doesn't quite fit our alphabet when words are spelt phonetically

Originally Posted by Marky Lazer

On the other hand, why does kitchen rhyme with lichen?

as far as I know, it doesn't
I'm sure lichen rhymes with liken
but you have definitely made your point about the irregularities of language, grammar and pronounciation, although those very irregularities (especially in English) remove some of the need for consistency in the invented language

[Marky Lazer]

LOL, you're right. But let me tell you there is actually a reason about all the inconsitencies in languages. And it mainly has to do with a language is not a standard thing that doesn't ever change any more. Languages are living things. Every day new words are coined, for example. The pronounication of words a hundred year ago differ from nowadays pronounication even when it's the same word. It's also the same with the meaning of words. How long ago did we only have one meaning for the word "gay" for example? Did you know the word silly started out meaning "blessed" ? Things change, and that's why I think many invented languages don't have that feeling of being real in contrast with real languages.

[magician2magici]

wooow

i'll re-read what you all said and understand it well then come and discuss it all ..

m2m

[TheEndIsNigh]

Isn't there something 'explanatory' about the rules of esperanto. I seem to remember an explanation of why the words were chosen. Of course I could be talking total rubbish.

In any case wouldn't esperanto phil ta job o wha ya wnt tadu

Since it's a language that only two or three hundred people understand (only a slight underestimatation) it would be alien enough for most readers and could be explained away as the language that humanity took to the stars etc or aliens thought was the universal language on earth.

[Marky Lazer]

I think M2M is not just wanting a language that sounds alien, but wants to create a language that fits the people that live in the imaginary world. And there is probaly a fun factor involved as well. That said, learning Esperanto for this cause seems a bit odd, too. It is a lot tougher to learn than people think, I've been told, but it probably depends on the background of the learner; his or her native language.

[ctg]

Originally Posted by Marky Lazer

If you want to create a language I suggest to go study Philology... There are so many aspects you have to consider when inventing a language. It's not just making up some words. If you want a language, you want it to be as real as possible. The best imaginary language(s) were made up, I think, by J.R.R. Tolkien. He was a philolgist, and a good one, too. You need to make up grammar, pronounciation, lexicom. It's going to be a huge task, even when you only need a couple of phrases.

Grand Master Tolkien based Elvish on Finnish language (after studying it for a long time). Like others has said, it's very difficult to create a language and make it absolutely right, but I would say that it's not a impossible task

[mosaix]

One of the most fascinating things I learnt about English concerns meat - bear with me on this.

English has two works for most kind of meat:

Cow and beef

Sheep and mutton

Pig and pork

Ever wondered why? Well, one word is for the meat whilst it's alive the other for when it's dead. But why bother with two words?

Well the word for the living animal has its roots in Anglo-Saxon and the word for the dead meat is Norman. The reason? After the Norman invasion in 1066 the Saxons tended the animals in the fields but that's all they did - the Norman lords got to eat the animal after it was slaughtered.

Language is one of the most fascinating areas of study!

[Urlik]

Originally Posted by mosaix

Language is one of the most fascinating areas of study!

agreed
etymology is a great way to spend any spare time

[TheEndIsNigh]

Spare time????

Is that the instant between the k sound of the tic and the tea sound of the toc.

Seriously though Mosaix, is that why lamb is lamb in both cases as this is a modern concept (growing it just to eat) and there hasn't been a lord of the manor problem that needed the distiction?

Something else Ive just noticed, though slightly unrelated :-

That's ok:

This's very rare.

why's* that? (sorry if this is so of topic no ones interested if so I'll understand, cheers.(*also not common)

[magician2magici]

Originally Posted by Malloriel

I'm sure there are several different approaches to creating a language. The simplest I can think of would be to simply create phrases or individual words that fit within the story rather than undertake the monumental task of creating your own language.

well , i've thought of something like that , but i couldn't do that , simply i can't make things just to fit certain places , i want to make my world more coherent and deep as possible as i can for my readers ,

Originally Posted by Malloriel

If you're going to make an entire language, though, an understanding of grammar in several forms is, I think, very important. Understanding the keys to using English grammar is important for a writer anyway, but at least analysing other languages and their grammatical structure gives key insights into how you could put together your own language. There are bits and pieces obviously common within language itself and knowing those you can find the form that fits best.

I would recommend picking your rules and sticking with them, especially if you want it to be a language people can eventually learn. I also recommend not basing it off of English, since we have so many exceptions, questionable pronunciations, words adopted from other languages in whole or in part that defy the rules as well, so something like French is a good example of a majority of the rules being solid. For pronunciation, I'd also avoid modelling after Gaelic ^_^

Other than that it's word building, an act in and of itself that can be terribly fun..

yep .. languages are grammer + words
i understand what you mean by understanding grammer of different languages , for example there is huge difference between english and arabic grammer , also i think the grammer of east-asian people is different too ..

Originally Posted by Malloriel

As for the why . . . I think for me, and for many others, the inspiration for it comes from Tolkien, who himself studied language extensively. There again, though, it's all part of world building. It's not necessary that every race have its own language, but then they might not all speak the common or trade tongue either. And if you DO have their language all worked out, grammatical structure and all, you can then give them a little more flavour. Example being not simply the implication of a strange accent, but to completely change the way they approach the grammar of the trade tongue. Using their words casually in such a way where you don't come across as using the language SIMPLY because it exists, but because it's a part of the race itself.

tolkien actually had something i simply don't , he was an expert in languages , that's why he was so good at this thing , language study is so fun for sure , but at the same time is a tiring process of world building that need time , creation and patience , so much of all ..

i tried at certain stage of my story to make accents instead of language for certain people , i changed some lettres with others , actually were 12 lettres , and this makes the speech so different , but it's not what i want now , i want true languages , something i can build culture by it , poetry , even novels !

Originally Posted by Malloriel

I think the best way to approach building a language isn't to build it for the sake of building it (though there ISN'T anything wrong with that activity), because if what you're proud of is the language more than the story it can reflect obviously in your writing. When it's a casual thing, say:

“Whatever happens, just be careful. You’re the only family I ever had, and the only person in the world who believes me.” He laughed desperately, casting tear-slick eyes upward. “Svint, Kale, I don’t even believe me.”

Kale smiled almost fondly at the curse and reaching into his pocket withdrew a small package wrapped in white.

--

A tiny excerpt from my own piece. Now, we know Svint isn't English. I've implied it isn't even the trade tongue by using the old italics tactic to set it apart. We don't really need to know the exact meaning since Kale's thoughts let us know before we wonder too long that Svint is a swear of some kind. Knowing the exact nature and meaning might be useful, but not necessary. It's also, in my opinion, a casual use of a language in the world..

actually great point you said here .. i never thought will i write and show my language extinsively by the people who speak it or i'll show it in certain situations .. i think i shouldn't , i shall use the new language cautiosly i guess .. it's hard though

Originally Posted by Malloriel

Also in this case, and possibly helpful to you, is how you view the role of your language in your world, aside from an integral part of any specific race. For this one, Maeyenin, it's a bit like French and German in English where many words are adopted whole or in part (coup de gras, cliché, house, etc. During the Regency era, especially in England, it was much more common to find French thrown into everyday conversations. It was very much a Frenglish situation.), which is more or less a way of saying that the words within Maeyenin are very frequently used in casual situations and when used there isn't confusion over the meaning of the words. .

well , i'm thinking of making my language live , to do so i must make any possibility at normal existing language possible , any language based on several previous languages , and this languages affects others , also it has accents , certain phrases that have a meanning away from the meanning of each individual word , it has ages of ascent , decline , it has many meannings for one word and one word has different meannings .. i guess that's my view now .. huge task to do but i'm glad i intend to do it and i hope i can finsh it well ..

Originally Posted by Malloriel

If you want ways to explain how the language works, that's when it's helpful to have those characters who've never been exposed to it before and someone who uses it fluently to explain things. I think the smoothest situations are those that involve some sort of big ceremony or some such high to-do where the outsider knows absolutely nothing here and has a translator, just try not to overload the reader by giving them a block of foreign language and then a block of translation. You want to keep the tempo of the story in mind as well. So it can be a great big ol' balancing act, but if it's what in your heart you're set to do then it will never feel like a trial.

^_^ That's my take on it, anyway.

good point too , but over making it may make reader bored , it's double edged though ..
i think small words will do the job , if i had the ability of making poetry i would make the new languages in poems actually , like in celebrations , songs will be referred to their native tongue people where readers will know there is such languages and are spoken by certain people ,, i guess that would be my take..

also i think i can do whatever i want in the short stories based on my characters , i have such a line in my epic ..

m2m..