General Weird discusion thread

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Lobolover

Thts the exact same problm with Irving-I would LIKE to read some of the stuff HPL advises,but they only publish that one single story.

But weve got a slight bit of the topic,now havent we?To the catalogue-well, its not like copying the whole contents,I mean,HPL comented on theese things both in his essays and his letters too.

A. Yes, he did, but we have only a very tiny portion of Lovecraft's correspondence in print, whereas Joshi has culled from all available collections of his manuscript letters, the Arkham House Transcripts of his letters, etc.; so not all of these references have been published as of yet. And even those which are, are (I believe) still under copyright. B. "Fair Use" is a rather slippery concept, but one thing which has been stated over and over in any authoritative reference to it is that among the things considered are the amount quoted and the possible impact on the commercial viability of the item quoted from. If the latter is impacted negatively, then it is much less likely to be considered fair use and much more likely to be considered copyright infringement or outright theft.

Now, while what I propose to do is nothing even approaching that, the feeling I'm getting here (I could be wrong) is that I'm being asked to at very least "skirt" this issue. To be frank, I have no intention of doing so. My support goes entirely to the writer and/or their chosen heirs (should the writer be deceased), even where such causes me no little inconvenience. And in this case, I have far too much respect and admiration for S. T. Joshi to wish to in any way step over the line as concerns the work he has done.

While this may not be the case here, far too often I see people on the internet thinking that this sort of work (as well as fiction) should be free access, regardless of copyright laws; that "information wants to (or should be) free". That's utter nonsense. "The laborer is worthy of his hire" applies here, and whether it be a fiction writer, a scholar doing research, or what-have-you, they deserve the benefit of their hard work, not we. If I feel in any way that to post something will be to lessen that, it won't be posted.

Again, such may not be the case in this instance, but that is how the above comes across, especially given prior comments about the Eddy-Lovecraft collaborations, and I'm replying accordingly. If I am in error about the intent, then I certainly apologize; but addressing this growing trend does no harm in any event.

[Lobolover]

well,yes.but stil,adressing the bearest info itself encyclopdiacaly is not anything worth to get all uptight about.Its just I wont be ableto get it,thats why im asking if theres something I dont know of in there.

[j. d. worthington]

The reason I come on so strong on this matter is that I've seen the sort of thing I describe above an awful lot, and the trend does seem to be growing. It never seems to occur to most people involved in this that, without selling the material, there's no reason for publishers to print it in the first place, nor for writers to attempt to get published. And with something as specialized as this, it doesn't take much of a diminishment in sales to make such a thing simply non-viable; which would be a great loss for Lovecraft scholarship.

As for specifics here: the listing of "Weird &c Items in Library of H. P. Lovecraft", as included in the book, amounts to five pages of material, which is quite a bit. As you've asked for lesser-known items (or ones not so well known today), these are what I'll include... though with many of these, I know little or nothing about them.

They are:

Leonid Nikolaevich Andreyev: The Seven That Were Hanged (also includes The Red Laugh), with an introduction by Thomas Seltzer, published by Boni & Liveright (Modern Library). Joshi dates this to "[1918] or [1925]". LL#29

Michael Arlen: Ghost Stories [1927] (which Lovecraft, however, describes as "unbelievably lacking in every possible element of the truly weird"). LL#41

John Jacob Astor: A Journey in Other Worlds: A Romance of the Future (1894). LL#46

F. Britten Austin: On the Borderland (1923). Lovecraft describes this as "mediocre". LL#51

Mary Bligh-Blond: Avernus (1924). LL#107

Frank Cowan: Revi-Lona: A Romance of Love in a Marvellous Land [188?]. LL#198

Jules Barbey d'Aurevilly: The Story without a Name (trans. by Edgar Saltus; 1891). LL#65

James De Mille: A Strange Manuscript Found in a Copper Cylinder [1888]. LL#230

Benjamin Disraeli: Alroy [1833]. LL#252

Esther Forbes: A Mirror for Witches in Which is Reflected the Life, Machinations, and Death of Famous Doll Bilby (1928). LL#322

Friedrich Heinrich Karl La Motte-Fouqué: Undine and Sintram (includes Undine, The Two Captains, Auslauga's Knight, Sintram and His Companions). LL#513

Charles Loring Jackson: The Gold Point and Other Strange Stories (1926) LL#466

Basil King: The Spreading Dawn: Stories of the Great Transition (1927). LL#495

Stephen McKenna: The Oldest God (1926). Joshi labels this a "Weird novel". LL#579

Fred Lewis Pattee: The House of the Black Ring (1916). Joshi notes that "Pattee reviewed HPL's Supernatural Horror in Literature in American Literature 18, No. 2 (May 1946): 175-77". LL#679

Leo Perutz: The Master of the Day of Judgment (trans. by Hedwig Singer; 1930). LL#687

Sir Arthur Quiller-Couch: Noughts and Crosses: Stories, Studies, and Sketches (1893). LL#715

____________________: Old Fires and Profitable Ghosts: A Book of Stories (1900). LL#716

____________________: Wandering Heath: Stories, Studies, and Sketches (1896). LL#717

W. Clark Russell: The Flying Dutchman; or, The Dutch Ship [1888]. LL#751

_____________: The Frozen Pirate [1887]. LL#752

Frank Mackenzie Savile: Beyond the Great South Wall: The Secret of the Antarctic [1899]. LL#759

M. P. Shiel: The Lord of the Sea [1901]. LL#798

May Sinclair: The Intercessor and Other Stories (1932). LL#803

Sir Osbert Sitwell: The Man Who Lost Himself (1929). LL#805

Signe Toksvig: The Last Devil (1927). LL#887\

J. Provand Webster: The Oracle of Baal: A Narrative of Some Curious Events in the Life of Professor Horatio Charmichael, M.A. (1896). LL#928

S. Fowler Wright: Deluge: A Romance (1928). LL#973

______________: The World Below (1930). LL#974

Dolf Wyllarde: Stories of Strange Happenings (1930). LL#975

There are also sections on anthologies, treatises, and on myth, folklore, and the occult as well....

I don't always agree with his assessments of various writers; some (such as Le Fanu) whom he felt rather coldly toward, have long been recognized as among the great contributors to the field, and I would agree. HPL did have his blind spots, too. Some of the above volumes are back in print, such as The Frozen Pirate; while the books by "Q" (Sir Arthur Quiller-Couch), though sometimes traditional, are certainly high on the list of Victorian spectral lore.

[Lobolover]

THANKS!

"The Seven That Were Hanged"-gasp-promising title-I didnt KNOW HPL liked ANY of the russians-Ive got a collection recently from a russain author,with a story about a madman,thinking all the evil in the world is conentrated in a single flower and tries to destroy it-havent goten around to finish it yet-but Id imagine he'd like that too.It is on amazon,I could try to find it online,but god,you have to admit the new editios has an AWFULL cover. Amazon.com: The Seven That Were Hanged: Leonid Andreyev, Thomas Seltzer: Books

Edit:E-text time! http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/seveh10.txt

Ill go through those others,but I have to coment on Undine-I read it myself and I can try to find the other ones-but even if it is a tad juvenile,I HAVE to say its good and the mentionings of people that always confuse the stream for a giant so many times made me think he WASNT a stream at all.


OH-And ive just found an online store at this country selling the 1921 translation of Alraune for 198 crowns (103 shiping,which is weird)-which is marvelous,as the original price istn even 5 US dollars-for a 400 page extra rare book-they only have one,though,but I am SO geting it !

[j. d. worthington]

HPL hadn't read a great many of the Russian writers, no, but he did read some, and commented on them here and there, and certainly he recognized their importance, even when they didn't necessarily appeal to him personally.

Congratulations on the Alraune! I've yet to read that one, though I did read The Sorcerer's Apprentice back those many years ago (own both now, so will be getting around to them sometime in the next 6 months or so, I reckon). Hope you enjoy it.

There was a little book of three stories by Ewers, titled Blood, but from what I've seen, it's rather difficult to find here nowadays, and tends to be a bit pricey....

Thanks, too, for the link to the Andreyev. I'd like to read that one, as well, in the near future....

EDIT: Well, I did find a copy of Blood, just after posting the above, for a quite reasonable price -- first time I've seen that for over 20 years....

[Lobolover]

Hmm.Well,have to go and sent a facturation through the bank to save 70 crowns of shiping cost.Anyway,ordered it like that.

I also found "the frozen pirate" as an e-text,if desired.

And finished the Garshin story-kinda neat.Ill try to find out its name.
EDIT:"The Red Flower"-at this place The Red Flower - Wikisource

By the way-have started Shiel's "The Purple Cloud"
-and have found another paralel to Poe-the"dead man hanging over the side and not seeming dead form afar"-viz Pym.

One I could find nowhere,though,was "The house of the Black Ring", though its at antiqbooks.

Arlen-hmm,I COULD give him a chance,HPL also didnt see In Kopfsberg Keep .

This reminds me-what do you think of Doyle's tries at horror?

[AE35Unit]

Well i have read quite a bit of Doyle and his writing is brilliant. Clear and inviting. I've not read much of his horror other than Horror of the Heights and Ring of Thoth but Hound of the Baskervilles is a classic horror,wrapped around a detective story. Yet to read that tho.
BTW who is Pym?

[Lobolover]

I meant his ghost story collections-the most I liked "Jellands journey" from "round the fire stories"-I havent goten around to read the ones sugsted by HPL-but from that colection,Doyle howers often on th brink of briliant horror, only to bring his own story down to utter mediocricy with the end."The beetle colector" implied,unknwoingly to Doyle-a certain idea-one RUINED by the casual and simplisticly naturalistic way of the stories end.

[j. d. worthington]

I've not read a great deal of Doyle's weird fiction (save his detective tales and such); and even with what I have, it's been decades now. I do recall having a somewhat similar reaction -- the style being (at least at times) at odds with the tale told now and again; though "The Captain of the 'Pole Star'" and "Lot No. 249" certainly are memorable tales, as are a few others....

But, if you include the Professor Challenger stories in this category, several of those are quite marvelous, as are various Holmes tales. Even A Study in Scarlet and The Sign of Four have some powerful weird moments where Doyle manages to convey an atmosphere of the uncanny....

Oh, and "Pym" is Poe's Arthur Gordon Pym, unless I'm mistaken. And on that particular quote... I'm also reminded of Coleridge's Ancient Mariner....

[Lobolover]

Hmm-I think the scene was exactly copied from Poe,as a homage maybe.

By the way:you got around to look at the Garshin story I linked?I finished it today,rather short and realy pics up at the end.)

Also-going through HPL's "collection of basic story elements in supernatural fiction" or whatever the original title is,ive recognised a good many stories.though it kinda puzzles me why he includes such a DETAILED description of "The dark chamber"-a secret advert,maybe?

Anyway-in that piece,ive found a reference to a story about a priest keeping an ancint monster under lock and it escaping,causing devastation. When I think about it it COULD be "the green wildbeast",but im not entierly sure.

And:got to the room descriptions on N. 252-and im already starting to see why you liked it.Thanks again for linking it.

Ps:You ever read "The temptaion of saint anthony" by Flaubert-I realy saw some common stylistic points and pieces reminescent of "Vathek" .

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Lobolover

Hmm-I think the scene was exactly copied from Poe,as a homage maybe.

Could well be; certainly he has influenced the majority of writers after him.

By the way:you got around to look at the Garshin story I linked?I finished it today,rather short and realy pics up at the end.)

No, I've not even had a chance to look at it. I was only on for about 20 minutes this morning while getting ready for work, and just got back from my first shift. Probably won't have a chance to read that one until Sunday....

Also-going through HPL's "collection of basic story elements in supernatural fiction" or whatever the original title is,ive recognised a good many stories.though it kinda puzzles me why he includes such a DETAILED description of "The dark chamber"-a secret advert,maybe?

Wouldn't be a promotion for the book, as the "basic elements" was a part of his commonplace book -- a notebook he kept for his own use, never intended for publication. With his fascination concerning tales featuring heredity, reverse evolution, and hereditary memory and the like, it likely features so prominently because he found the idea of the novel of particular interest, perhaps stimulating his own imagination rather keenly.

Ironically, when Derleth was doing his "posthumous collaborations", taking things from HPL's Commonplace Book, he apparently mistook this lengthy description as an original idea of Lovecraft's own, and ended up using it for one of these "collaborations" -- "The Ancestor", IIRC....

Anyway-in that piece,ive found a reference to a story about a priest keeping an ancint monster under lock and it escaping,causing devastation. When I think about it it COULD be "the green wildbeast",but im not entierly sure.

Again, it's possible; but with these notes Lovecraft was more often concerned with extracting the essential themes, that were commonly used fo the best weird tales, rather than having specific tales in mind. Still, as with the above, this might be an exception....

And:got to the room descriptions on N. 252-and im already starting to see why you liked it.Thanks again for linking it.

Thought you might like that one. It's less anthropomorphic in its spectral appearances than the Bulwer, but closely akin in many ways. But that feeling of "alienness" is much stronger here, making the "unknown" even more so....

As for "The Temptation of St. Anthony"... No, I've not read the entire thing, only passages. I have two different translations, and had reluctantly held off until I got my hands on a copy of the Hearn translation (Lovecraft's preferred one, I believe). So it's scheduled for a reading shortly... though that "shortly" could be anytime in the next 6-8 months.....

As for its possible relation to/influence by Vathek... Not heard about that, but it's a possibility, I suppose. After all, Vathek was originally written in French, though published in English first....

[Lobolover]

Hmm-to the summaries-ive actualy idntified about ten stories already-among them "fishhead" and "secret worship"-I havent read "the house and the brain" yet,im actualy reading in this sequence:252,The Bad Lans,ABO-

Which reminds me-could you remember any tales from Benson except the one HPL talked about?

And one more thing-whats your opinion on Derleth and his "collaborations"?

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Lobolover

Hmm-to the summaries-ive actualy idntified about ten stories already-among them "fishhead" and "secret worship"-I havent read "the house and the brain" yet,im actualy reading in this sequence:252,The Bad Lans,ABO-

Which reminds me-could you remember any tales from Benson except the one HPL talked about?

And one more thing-whats your opinion on Derleth and his "collaborations"?

On the latter -- they vary. Some are not at all good; some are interesting, but seriously flawed, and a small number I think work quite well... though they are not Lovecraft. Among the latter I'd include The Lurker at the Threshold and "The Lamp of Alhazred", for instance; the last being a rather poignant hommage to his mentor. "The Gable Window" is a rather haunting piece, as well, though it owes more than a little to Aiken's "Silent Snow, Secret Snow" in mood and theme.

Quite often, though, I find some of Derleth's concepts to be fascinating, while the story itself is simply pulpish... such as R'lyeh extending from the Pacific to the northeastern seaboard around Massachusetts....

Benson... Out of The Room in the Tower, I'd suggest the title story, "How Fear Departed from the Long Gallery", "Caterpillars", "The Man Who Went Too Far", "Between the Lights", "The Thing in the Hall", "The House with the Brick-Kiln", and to a somewhat lesser degree, "The Terror by Night".

From Visible and Invisible, I'd suggest: "And the Dead Spake....", "Negotium Perambulans", "Mrs. Amworth", "Inscrutable Decrees", and "The Horror-Horn" (though I'm less impressed with that one than was HPL).

About identifying the "underlying plots" he has with specific stories: that's a place to tread with caution. HPL was so prodigiously read in the field, that what may seem an obvious correlation often is a mistaken one, as he had another tale in mind, or (as I indicated above) several tales that use the same ideas in mind. A good example among his own work is "Cool Air", which most have seen as almost his version of Poe's "Valdemar", when he himself saw it as inspired by Machen's "Novel of the White Powder", as he hadn't even had the Poe tale in mind when he wrote it.... So with something like that, without corroborating statements from HPL, or such a detailed similarity that it's almost unarguable, best to leave it as a tentative identification rather than taking it as definitive.....

[Lobolover]

Hmm.Thanks.What do you think of "The dust cloud" or "the bus conductor",as I have those on my pc.

[j. d. worthington]

I know I read them, but be darned if I can recall anything about them. This doesn't necessarily mean they were bad (or good)... simply my sometimes spotty memory....