Petrol In England - What A Joke!!

[TheEndIsNigh]

Originally Posted by nomad45

I take it I was supposed to pick up on the imagination equasion?

No it was more of a flintstone thing I had in mind.

[Drachir]

The question of geothermal power has come up a few times in this post so I thought I would add a few thoughts on that.

There is a source of geothermal power available in almost all countries that is relatively easy to use and that is the water found in abandoned mines. Almost all mines flood when they are abandoned, creating huge reservoirs of underground water that are at a fairly constant temperature. All that needs to be done to tap into it is to pump the water through heat exchangers and extract the heat. This has been done in the town of Springhill, Nova Scotia in Canada. The heat source is inexhaustible as the used water is simply pumped back into the ground to be heated by the earth once again. Springhill supplies almost all of its electrical needs through this process and provides heat for the town to boot. It seems to me that Europe, with its thousands of abandoned mines could easily make use of this.

A nice feature of such a system is that it can be created with off the shelf technology.

[TheEndIsNigh]

Drachir: Interesting. Is there no danger of causing damage to the mine structure by creating currents in the water. Also does it concentrate salts in the water which may cause problems with the system.

Given the above doesn't create a problem it's sad that we in the UK (so rich in disused mines) are doing nothing similar as far as I'm aware.

Thanks for the post.

[Thadlerian]

Originally Posted by nomad45

I keep hearing about creating power. loosing and something about what I'm describing is perpetual motion, and that its impossible. To that I say once apon a time the earth was flat, your face would be ripped off at 35 mph, the sound barrier was un breakeble. the moon was unreachable.
All theses things were proven wrong. why not this?

Because those other beliefs that you mention had no basis in scientific observation and fact. This has. It's one of the laws of thermophysics, though I can't recall which one.

[nomad45]

Originally Posted by Thadlerian

Because those other beliefs that you mention had no basis in scientific observation and fact. This has. It's one of the laws of thermophysics, though I can't recall which one.

Well that is for folks who are better educated than I. The bumblebee Is aerodynamcly {Damm no matter how I spell that it doesn't look right.}
Unfit to fly. Either someone forgot to mention that to the Bee or he told us ape's to go climb a tree.

If we can spin Two peices of metal together to make electricity together. well....1 motor several electricity generating devices. feedback loop. capassitors. batteries. It just sounds dooable to me. If I were the mecanical type and had a workshop I would give it a whirl, But as it is Im working 70 tom 80 hour weeks to try to get ahead. I'm only breaking even at this point.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by TheEndIsNigh

Also does it concentrate salts in the water which may cause problems with the system.

I also thought that - much Coal Mine drainage is acidic and would cause severe corrosion problems to any steel pipework, but there are plenty of flooded Tin mines in Cornwall, and other mines. It would all depend on the local geology. I can't see the movement of water being a problem.

You can also tap methane from old refuse dumps. They have to do this anyway, otherwise some are liable to explode.

We are getting a little away from vehicle-power sources now, but if building regulations were changed to put solar panels on the top of all new buildings, surely that would make a great impact to the energy shortfall.

[TheEndIsNigh]

Dave:

The problem is with things like rooftop energy renewal, certainly in this country, is that the return on investment period can be longer that the working life of the product. It's a kind of negative energy/equity thing. Not that long ago (and these figures are approximate) it used to take 7/8 years to recoup the cost of double glazing 15-20 for cavity wall insulation (in an old house). In 7/8 years the gass units used to fail (misting) and the with cavity wall most peole died before they got there money back.

It's similar with solar panels (water and electronic). In water systems pipes are likely to fail due to temperature variations etc. and the cost of covering a house with solar cells would probably be the same as the house itself (again on old property). Both systems are not maintenance free so there is the cost of the service every year which causes a man and a van to visit (more carbon).

New build the costs are better as the fitting cost is part of the house build. Although the costs are still disproportionate.

Windmills are a joke (large and housetop). Windfarms are only able to work intermittently as it can be either too windy or not windy enough (and usually not when the energy is needed). Operating outside the 'window' will cause premature wear and tear. The infractructure of windfarms usually have larger carbon footprints than the energy saved over the life of the product. Don't forget for the next 20 years a some bloke has to go the windfarm in his SUV along that road across the pennines that wasn't there before, check all is ok, oil the cogs and read the paper. As far as I know the only thing that makes it viable is HMG gives great dollops of cash in subsidies. Remember, didn't Shell pull out of the Thames deal recently. It wasn't because they hate making money.

The best option we have in this country would be the Severn barrage. For less than the cost of a nuclear station this would provide 5-10% of the countries needs. It would also provide a useful carbon reducing causeway (traffic).

Of course it will never be built as the very people that want green energy will object to a few bird sancturies being "changed". They prefer that the bird should be left to choke on the fumes and pollution that will inevitably result without the barrage. Similar barrages across other suitable sites would even out the tidal peaks and enable the a smooth level of supply. No instead we will be conned into "nuclear it's the only alternative route" and will all end in a classic nuclear accident.

Not of course that any of this will matter given the short time we all have left.

[ktabic]

Originally Posted by nomad45

Well that is for folks who are better educated than I. The bumblebee Is aerodynamcly {Damm no matter how I spell that it doesn't look right.}
Unfit to fly. Either someone forgot to mention that to the Bee or he told us ape's to go climb a tree.

There are quite a few different aerodynamic methods to make something fly. Doing the bumblebee calculations for most of them would result in impossible flying bumblebees. Fortunately for science and aircraft engineers everywhere, the dynamic stall method of creating lift creates enough lift for a bumblebee to fly and all within the bumblebees capability.

Originally Posted by nomad45

If we can spin Two peices of metal together to make electricity together. well....1 motor several electricity generating devices. feedback loop. capassitors. batteries. It just sounds dooable to me. If I were the mecanical type and had a workshop I would give it a whirl,

Such a setup would not be a perpetual motion system. The components would all introduce resistance to the electron flow of the electricity, which would generate heat in the components, causing a gradual loss of energy. Then both the motor and the dynamos (the electricity generate devices) would both be working against the drag of the air and the drag of magnetic fields, introducing more loss.
Any perpetual motion machine violates either the first or second law of thermodynamics. The laws might not apply in certain situations, like the beginning or end of the universe, but they have been holding strong for a few billion years now.

[Vladd67]

First signs of panic at the pumps as drivers warned price of petrol ‘will double’ | Vladd’s view of the World
And so the panic buying starts. When will Brown learn to keep his mouth shut.

[Ursa major]

If people panic buy, I doubt it'll be because of a government statement; what they'll do is recall the complete inaction of the government at the time of the 2000 fuel protests**.


** - It seems odd that our government will spend fortunes, destroy lives, and rollback our fundamental freedoms chasing vague threats (some of them based on fiction), but when faced with something real and containable, they're caught like a rabbit in the headlights.

[nomad45]

Originally Posted by ktabic

There are quite a few different aerodynamic methods to make something fly. Doing the bumblebee calculations for most of them would result in impossible flying bumblebees. Fortunately for science and aircraft engineers everywhere, the dynamic stall method of creating lift creates enough lift for a bumblebee to fly and all within the bumblebees capability.



Such a setup would not be a perpetual motion system. The components would all introduce resistance to the electron flow of the electricity, which would generate heat in the components, causing a gradual loss of energy. Then both the motor and the dynamos (the electricity generate devices) would both be working against the drag of the air and the drag of magnetic fields, introducing more loss.
Any perpetual motion machine violates either the first or second law of thermodynamics. The laws might not apply in certain situations, like the beginning or end of the universe, but they have been holding strong for a few billion years now.

My head hurts.

[Drachir]

Originally Posted by TheEndIsNigh

Drachir: Interesting. Is there no danger of causing damage to the mine structure by creating currents in the water. Also does it concentrate salts in the water which may cause problems with the system.

Given the above doesn't create a problem it's sad that we in the UK (so rich in disused mines) are doing nothing similar as far as I'm aware.

Thanks for the post.

Neither of these were mentioned as a problem. I suspect that the water is probably quite safe - after all we're talking about millions of cubic metres of water in some of these mines, and before they were abandoned they had to be coninually pumped out. Any chemicals would probably be quite dilute.

This seems to be a source of easily available energy that is simply overlooked.

Here is a link to information on the project.
http://www.canren.gc.ca/app/filerepo...89E8BF9F67.pdf
And here is another article about a similar project in Yellowknife, NWT. Yellowknife looks to old mine for geothermal energy

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

If people panic buy, I doubt it'll be because of a government statement; what they'll do is recall the complete inaction of the government at the time of the 2000 fuel protests**.

They did something eventually - they designed a scheme (never implemented) which would have given petrol allowances to the people deemed to need them the most to keep the country running - who were these people you ask?

Well, Nurses and Teachers (but since none for students and patients they would have had little to actually do), and of course, for the Politicians! How could we ever do without them?

They failed to realise that within a few more days shops and businesses would run out of products and raw materials, and nothing was going to work anyway.

What was worse than the panic buying queues was the stealing of petrol from cars, and oil from tanks for heating houses - and the people keeping petrol in containers in garages without any fire precautions. Welcome to the world of 'Mad Max'.

[Vladd67]

The latest in thefts - used cooking oil -- Newsday.com
The look of the future?

[nomad45]

[quote=Drachir;1137226]

This seems to be a source of easily available energy that is simply overlooked.


There is the root of the proble right there. overlooking the solution.
there has to be one. except to gripe about the price of fuel.
I have stated several alternatives, only to be told they aren't viable for one reason or another. somebody else give us an alternative here. and I mean one that folks can keep thier present or better thier standard of living.