30.08: Silence in the Library

[ktabic]

I thought the darkness - as mentioned by Owen in TW S2 after his death - was to do with the death-like that came back with Owen from his death. I could well be wrong.

As for the Vashta Nerada needing to be intelligent to organize themselves into the shape of a shadow, they wouldn't need to. Plenty of insects on Earth can do more than that without intelligence (there was an article in New Scientist a few months back about how bees could come to a consensual majority decision about which site would be best for a new hive - the intelligence is in the group not in the individual - so a complete contrast to humanity there )

[Rufio]

Originally Posted by PTeppic

We did... that would be on 1st June at 9:56am:

Whoops, that's what you get for skimming.

Originally Posted by Dave

Also that idea is significantly older than The Matrix:

I get the idea, just still not sure on the detail i.e. Where are they exactly? If true, that they are inside the hardrive of a computer belonging to a girl called Cally, living in the present day, then some things do not quite fit square.

I know it's older than The Matrix, I kind of got that vibe a little though, from Dr. Moon who may be some kind of program, but self aware within the construct the girl has created (or something like that), kind of like an agent from The Matrix. (only good)

I haven't got all the exact detail down, but I think this is the gist of what is going on. Just to clarify I think it is the girl that is in or IS the computer, the library is real...

Can't wait for the second part anyway! I've found this series slightly disappointing so far... since the return it has always been hit and miss, capable of wonderful episodes as good a pieces of television as anything, but also some real stinkers too, but this series has just been kind of lacklustre. This episode is a big improvement (anything from the pen of Steven Moffatt is well worth watching), so hopefully it will pick up from here going into the last few episodes.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by ktabic

I thought the darkness... was to do with the death-like that came back with Owen from his death.

At the time, so did I (all of that darkness that is death without an after-life, and the light at the end of the tunnel in near-death experiences) so most likely the "darknesses" are too different things. (Although their own DW/TW Universe ought to have some kind of internal consistency between different writers.)

Originally Posted by ktabic

As for the Vashta Nerada needing to be intelligent to organize themselves into the shape of a shadow, they wouldn't need to.

I'm wrong, you're correct. My mistake!

Originally Posted by ktabic

...there was an article in New Scientist a few months back about how bees could come to a consensual majority decision about which site would be best for a new hive...

Could this be something to do with the "missing bees"?? Maybe there isn't enough room for both Vashta Nerada and Bees.

OT: Apparently Bees around the world speak different languages - they do differently dances (disco, ballroom, salsa ) but they are incredibly fast at picking up each other's language (except the English Bees who only speak one language and expect all the others to speak it too )

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by ktabic

As for the Vashta Nerada needing to be intelligent to organize themselves into the shape of a shadow, they wouldn't need to. Plenty of insects on Earth can do more than that without intelligence (there was an article in New Scientist a few months back about how bees could come to a consensual majority decision about which site would be best for a new hive - the intelligence is in the group not in the individual

Deciding on a site (what does "decide" mean in this context - I doubt it has anything like the same meaning we attribute usually to this word) is an entirely different magnitude of problem to organising into a shape that represents the shadow of an actual object thrown by an entirely imaginary light source from an unknown location. I doubt that many of us could do it without putting a lot of thought into it.

Originally Posted by ktabic

...so a complete contrast to humanity there )

I think you're on stronger ground with this comment.

[ktabic]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

Deciding on a site (what does "decide" mean in this context - I doubt it has anything like the same meaning we attribute usually to this word)

Up to 80,000 (although more likely 1,000-20,000) bees deciding upon where they are going to make a new home by a process of comparison and elimination of possible locations. Bearing in mind if they get it wrong the swarm and queen are either dead or suffer badly. I did a bit of reading on this earlier, and now I've decided that the bee dance is even more impressive.
Not only are they aware of the distance and true direction to a location (google the Schafberg Experiment), they also communicate angles in relation to the Sun, even at night when it isn't visible.

Originally Posted by Ursa major

organising into a shape that represents the shadow of an actual object thrown by an entirely imaginary light source from an unknown location. I doubt that many of us could do it without putting a lot of thought into it.

If they where really smart, they would have used existing shadows. As it was, they just copied shadows, and everyone could spot them. Irrational fear? Pah, just pass me they can of Raid, I have a shadow to spray

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by ktabic

Up to 80,000 (although more likely 1,000-20,000) bees deciding upon where they are going to make a new home by a process of comparison and elimination of possible locations.

The thing is, no one knows (unless bees are conscious) that this is what they're doing. Water reaches a level, filling in all those fiddly bits on the coast, but it's gravity at work, not intelligence. Same with the bees. They all land somewhere, but how have "they" "decided"? Perhaps it just smells right, or the light's at the right intensity. (I agree the dance is impressive, but that's a different activity entirely.)

Originally Posted by ktabic

If they where really smart, they would have used existing shadows. As it was, they just copied shadows, and everyone could spot them. Irrational fear? Pah, just pass me they can of Raid, I have a shadow to spray

Turns out they can reason - and talk. (And we know they can make a skeleton in a suit walk - and they get that horror film action to a tee. Perhaps they read how to do it in a book.

[ktabic]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

The thing is, no one knows (unless bees are conscious) that this is what they're doing. Water reaches a level, filling in all those fiddly bits on the coast, but it's gravity at work, not intelligence. Same with the bees. They all land somewhere, but how have "they" "decided"? Perhaps it just smells right, or the light's at the right intensity. (I agree the dance is impressive, but that's a different activity entirely.)

We do know how to decode parts of the bee dance, how they explain direction and distance, and that distance doesn't need to be in the direction.
Part of what we don't know about the bee dance is probably the bee equivalent of 3-bed semi, central heating and easy access to the flowers.

Originally Posted by Ursa major

Turns out they can reason - and talk. (And we know they can make a skeleton in a suit walk - and they get that horror film action to a tee. Perhaps they read how to do it in a book.

Yeah, well, the whole talking bit does kinda make my argument redundant.

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by ktabic

We do know how to decode parts of the bee dance, how they explain direction and distance, and that distance doesn't need to be in the direction.

I was referring to the "choosing" of a new site, not the "where are all the flowers" dance. (Unless all 80000 bees each do a dance to make their suggestion for thier new home.)

[Ice fyre]

Hi just thought I would jump in here with me size nines.

I am just thinking could bees be be like a network, the information is coded by a dance, the other bees process this information like a large computer network would, maybe like the SETI search. With so many drones processing that information may not take long at all?

[ktabic]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

I was referring to the "choosing" of a new site, not the "where are all the flowers" dance. (Unless all 80000 bees each do a dance to make their suggestion for thier new home.)

Nope, just the scouts. They do the dance (which also includes the "where are all the flowers" bit, but instead pointing to the new home). Other bees fly to investigate, return and do the dance to. Depending on how enthusiastic the dancers are, more will go. Eventual (about 3 days) the swarm will move off for the new home. The tricky part is that they aren't just looking at one place. Multiple scouts, multiple sites, multiple dances. But only one place they will go.

[Ursa major]

So they are like humans: they're taken in by enthusiastic hype.


I'm still having trouble with the anthropomorphisation implicit in the description of the process, though; I accept that they are "choosing", but they're not "making a decision", at least not in the way we (ought to) do, such as imagining the consequences of each of the choices available to us.

[ktabic]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

So they are like humans: they're taken in by enthusiastic hype.

Speak for yourself! My response to enthusiatic hype is to go 'Bleh, people!' and ignore them.

Originally Posted by Ursa major

I'm still having trouble with the anthropomorphisation implicit in the description of the process

Yeah, sorry about that. You would think as both a (wannabe) writer and part-time University science student, I'd be better at that. Fat chance

Originally Posted by Ursa major

though; I accept that they are "choosing", but they're not "making a decision", at least not in the way we (ought to) do, such as imagining the consequences of each of the choices available to us.

We're not very good at imagining the consequences of choices ourselves. I think the bees method is better - no personal gain.

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by ktabic

Speak for yourself! My response to enthusiatic hype is to go 'Bleh, people!' and ignore them.

Me too, but I have this awful feeling that we're not typical.


(Terribly off thread - as if we're on it now - but I heard a report about Donald Trump's press conference yesterday on Radio 5 Live. Yes, Trump had admitted not reading his own company's environmental report, and yes, he was shaky on the facts, but hey: he was enthusiastic, declaring that he was the right man, and his company the right company, for the job. He certainly seemed to have convinced the reporter.)