Witch Burnings

[BookStop]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L21301127.htm

NAIROBI, May 21 (Reuters) - A mob has burned to death at least 11 people accused of witchcraft in an area of west Kenya where traditional beliefs run deep, police said on Wednesday.
"Their houses were torched. Eight women and three men suspected of being witches died," Kenya's deputy police spokesman Charles Owino said.
Kisii district residents confirmed the killings, saying an enraged crowd had gone house-to-house on Tuesday night, using a list of supposed witches in the region.
"They burned them alive in their homes," one resident said, asking not to be named.
About 30 houses were torched.
Police drafted extra personnel into the area to prevent revenge attacks in a region already reeling from tribal killings during Kenya's post-election crisis.
Traditional African beliefs, Christianity and Islam co-exist peacefully in Kenya. But there is widespread suspicion of sorcery, particularly in west Kenya, which has a long tradition of witch doctors and faith healers.
Owino said almost all the victims were elderly Kenyans, aged between 70 and 90, although one was nearer 40.

[j. d. worthington]

Someone care to tell me again why we don't need to eradicate mysticism and superstition from the species....?

[TheEndIsNigh]

What would you suggest. A bonfire perhaps? Lets face it if we started down the route of getting rid of people with strange beliefs in spirits and magic and 'miraculous' events we would be on one hell of a helter skelter ride. What about all those who regularly chant in unison, often surrounded by candles, invoking the intervention of a mystical unknown to rid the world the really important problems. I mean the serious stuff like doing well at football game or passing a driving test. Would thay have to go too?

[j. d. worthington]

Who said anything about getting rid of the people? I said eradicating mysticism and superstition, not the people holding the beliefs. Getting rid of a belief is not the same as getting rid of a person. Education. Combat this nonsense whenever it rears its ugly head. Get rid of horoscopes in the newspapers. Promote science education and critical thinking; discourage acceptance of any mystical belief without good, solid evidence. (Which, incidentally, would pretty much knock the bottom out of just about any con artist around, to boot....)

I realize that, even if such a thing is possible, it's going to take millennia; but the sooner we get this incubus off our backs (and out of our worldviews) the better. For all the "comfort" such beliefs have offered, they've caused incalculable harm, resulting in separatism, ostracism, mutilation, imprisonment, slavery, and (not infrequently) death. Isn't it time we put these things where they really do belong -- as a part of our development we no longer truly need (however much we may currently think we do), but which can be viewed with whatever honor and/or respect we might accord to any other part of our history as a species... only not carrying that damned baggage around with us to cause more suffering for the future....

[Fourth Hunter]

I think the issue isn't the mysticism, or the superstition. Those are a tenet of human nature; we need something to hold onto. The issue is when people misinterpret and become fanatics. And as soon as that becomes outlawed and gone, when does religion go the same way? Maybe I'm paranoid, but I have a hard time getting on board with any kind of eradication of beliefs.

[j. d. worthington]

Sorry, but any belief based on ignorance rather than knowledge isn't really worth a great deal; and when it comes to this sort of thing (and I'm afraid I have to strongly disagree with you about it not being the mysticism or superstition, as these are at the very root of such behaviors, and the pages of history are drenched with the blood of those who have suffered because of that; and no, it doesn't take people becoming fanatical about it -- again, look at history for a refutation of that concept) that's precisely what we're dealing with: ignorance of how the forces of nature actually work and a willingness to accept outmoded animistic and anthropomorphic models of the universe that have yet to be supported by any firm evidence.

As for your comment "we need something to hold onto" -- that is precisely what I was saying earlier: this is a very dubious assertion. I'd argue it's much more a case of such beliefs having developed in our earliest stages, therefore they've had largely unquestioned sway until relatively recent history; this results in the idea that we need such to support us, but given the number of people throughout history (as well as currently) who either began with a faith and eventually outgrew it, or who never had such in the first place, it's highly unlikely that this idea is an accurate one. As for beliefs... there are all sorts of beliefs, and a belief in the supernatural isn't necessary to have plenty of worthwhile and even ennobling things to believe in. (Which, I suppose, indicates my response to your query about religion: I've absolutely no problem with religion going the same way. In fact, I'd say the gradual elimination of that as well would ultimately be a very good thing. I'm afraid I see no reason to give any religion any more special treatment than I do a belief in witchcraft, demonology, haruspicy, rhabdomancy, or any other system of belief which isn't supported by the facts.)

As the saying goes, "Skepticism is a virtue". More and more I'm convinced that critical thinking is absolutely essential to a better quality of life, a greater degree of freedom, and the only way to be liberated from the outworn shadows of the past. We don't need to despise such beliefs -- like classical mythology, many of them have their beautiful or picturesque points; we simply need to learn to accept them as the result of emotional impulses rather than objective reality. It's not when people become fanatical; it's when people accept these things as real rather than emotionally-driven that the trouble begins.

[Quokka]

So we're going to start legislating against stupidity? That's got to be a slippery slope, personally I think anyone who buys into horoscopes or chicken entrails is foolish but that's their choice and I don't think we have the right to burn them for it.

I know that's not what you're advocating JD and I agree with you on the value of critical thinking, in fact I posted something along similar lines the other day in the thread about AIDS ie needing to get everyone on the same page about what HIV/AIDS is medically before we can ever hope to address it's spread but on the other hand sometimes the silly ideas turn out to be right and to some extent I think we need people looking in every direction, it increases the odds of us not overlooking something important.

[j. d. worthington]

The thing is, Quokka, that critical thinking by no means prevents people from taking off-beat paths; it simply means that they're less likely to be hoodwinked by mystification and coincidence, and more likely to be able to sift the wheat from the chaff in exploring such paths. And, if such beliefs have any basis in reality, critical thinking rather than blind acceptance is much, much more likely to prove the way to finding such a basis....

As for legislation... chiefly, I'd say the main "legislation" would have to do with improving the educational system and working on educating the public outside said system as well. A long, slow, arduous process, but the end result is almost certain to be of much more benefit to us all in the long run. Individuals may still hold onto their (to use your phrasing) stupidity or foolish beliefs, but if the culture or society does not, the ultimate reward is likely to be quite enormous... and we wouldn't be seeing such barbarous things as this happening again, now would we?

[Quokka]

Ok, I agree with everything... except I'm sure people would find some excuse to continue with barbarous acts .

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Quokka

Ok, I agree with everything... except I'm sure people would find some excuse to continue with barbarous acts .

Quite possibly. But at least in cases like this they wouldn't have a ready-made excuse....

[TheEndIsNigh]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

...

I realize that, even if such a thing is possible, it's going to take millennia; but the sooner we get this incubus off our backs (and out of our worldviews) the better. For all the "comfort" such beliefs have offered, they've caused incalculable harm, resulting in separatism, ostracism, mutilation, imprisonment, slavery, and (not infrequently) death. Isn't it time we put these things where they really do belong -- as a part of our development we no longer truly need (however much we may currently think we do), but which can be viewed with whatever honor and/or respect we might accord to any other part of our history as a species... only not carrying that damned baggage around with us to cause more suffering for the future....

Well Amen and a big Hosannah to that!

Just so people know where I'm coming from, here is a post I made on another thread recently

I don't know what to call this thread :P

JD: The trouble is, given our elightenment, we are likely to be the first against the wall when things kick off. Your plan, education, reason, ballanced argument etc would take too long and in the meantime the illusioned would probably seek redress. So at the very least there is likely to be fisticuffs. Which is why the reference to helter skelters etc.

However if we are to try for a reasonable approach I think the first requirement is to make

ANY

teaching of a belief system should be an 18+ certificate, if only for the content of most of the material let alone that such concepts should be reserved to those of a mature mind.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by TheEndIsNigh

However if we are to try for a reasonable approach I think the first requirement is to make

ANY

teaching of a belief system should be an 18+ certificate, if only for the content of most of the material let alone that such concepts should be reserved to those of a mature mind.

In a way, this reminds me of something from one of Lovecraft's letters on the subject, where he mentions that one of the "giveaways" is that religious teaching is so often inculcated at such an early age, before the auditor has developed the faculty of critical reasoning. In other words, they "load the deck" in favor of the belief. Whereas, he argued, if people really wanted their children to get the straight dope, they'd teach them to search for the truth, wherever that led them, regardless of traditional belief systems; and, if any truth was to be found in such, then it would inevitably be found. (I don't recall the exact letter at the moment, and don't have the time to go looking through my volumes of his letters to find it, but if I can find it later, I'll post it then; it was a very interesting argument.)

As for your argument that those subscribing to such beliefs would fight back -- we're seeing that already, with the resurgence of various forms of neomysticism, not to mention the renaming of creationism as "intelligent design" and so forth, and the other brands of fundamentalist thinking that reject any scientific evidence they find inconvenient to their worldview. This has always been the case, and will continue to be until people outgrow the stuff. But, just as we had to leave behind beliefs that the world was flat, that demons, devils, or spirits caused various diseases both physical and mental, that the sun revolved around the earth, and all the rest of that lot, so we will have to leave behind at very least the more ignorant and superstitious belief systems such as the one in the news story above. That's a battle we can't afford to let the other side win by default; it's one that has to be fought and won... but doing so with draconian measures rather than the more arduous and painstaking (and time-consuming) method of educating people out of such purblind beliefs and into an understanding of the natural world around them is a sure-fire way to turn the whole thing into wholesale bloodshed... which rather defeats the purpose, don't you think?

[TheEndIsNigh]

Please collect your coconut mat at the bottom of the stairs.

[Fourth Hunter]

Ok, while these cruelties are, and always have and will always be, despicable, we have no right to tell people what not to believe, much less why. Throw them in jail; punish them for their violence, but not their beliefs. The beliefs aren't the problem, the people themselves are. Believe me, by your system- people will eventually start burning the superstitious. I believe that people will always wish those who are different from them harm and will always find the means and rationalizations to bring it to fruition.

[j. d. worthington]

Sorry, I have to firmly disagree. Most of these beliefs encourage (some even demand) such hatred and divisiveness; they promote violence against the outsider, especially one who is believed (due to the criteria set down in these beliefs) as one in league with "the power of darkness", etc. Had we not challenged, fought against, and combatted in every way the beliefs set forth by, say, Sprenger and Kramer in the Malleus Maleficarum, or James' Daemonology, or Mather's Wonders of the Invisible World, or any of the other books supporting such beliefs, the bloodshed would simply have never ended.

Such beliefs are absolutely antagonistic to any genuinely humane or humanistic society or growth of a culture. They are atavistic nonsense that demand muddled thinking, lack of reason in favor of superstition, and abrogation of one's freedom in favor of authority. Such beliefs can no longer be allowed to go without intense challenge if we wish to survive the challenges ahead. We need every bit of our courage, our ability to think, to reason, and to critically examine, if we wish to not find ourselves repeating the worst of (and I know this is a politically incorrect phrase, but dammit, it's perfectly on target in this instance) the Dark Ages.

As for people finding excuses for such acts... again, perhaps they will. But eliminating this bilge will at least force them to come up with something on their own, not provide them with (as I noted earlier) ready-made justifications for such acts of barbarism. I'm sorry, but I put the lives of those who would suffer losing them a damned sight higher than I do the right of someone to believe that murder is justified because the other person was a "witch".