Witch Burnings

[Lith]

Or the stomach.

[mosaix]

Originally Posted by Lith

Half-empty, or half-full?

Depends whether your filling it or drinking from it. Without such info it is a neutral state.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Parson

This is a logical argument and carries weight as such. But this logic might be flawed in a way that we do not understand. I see the gulf between human intelligence and God as near infinite.

It "might be"... but this again is based on an assumption that is in turn based on what you want to believe, not on what there is any evidence for. As noted earlier, it isn't just that the evidence is lacking, it's that so much of these things go completely contrary to the evidence that does exist. And, like the belief in fairies, dragons, unicorns, "gaseous vertebrates", etc., etc., etc., while it cannot be 100% disproven, in light of this, (to use Lovecraft's phrase) "monstrously improbable". Certainly more so than we would allow in any other aspect of life where we had not previously been conditioned to give it a pass. That, in itself, makes the likelihood of any genuine truth to the matter, even more unlikely. As I said before, if there were truth to be found here, by this point (considering people have been looking for it since at least the beginning of recorded history) something would have come to light. It wouldn't need preconditioning to support it.

When I brought my daughter to school for the first time she broke my heart crying that she did not want to go. (This occurred occasionally for 4 years!) There was no logic that she understood that made sense to her to go to a place where she struggled mentally and socially. Now that she has children of her own she understands but it took a lot more maturity and comprehension than she possessed at that time to understand the requirement.

I'm afraid I don't see how this constitutes an argument at all. Children -- especially young children -- are not able to parse the logic behind such situations, simply by dint of their lack of experience. This is hardly the same thing as an adult human being unable to understand the sort of thing we're talking about here, unless you concede that information is deliberately being held back from us; information that is vital to an intelligent, rational acceptance (rather than blind faith, which is -- as both noted above and proven daily, a very dangerous option to take, as it doesn't allow one to have any argument against beliefs that can and do cause harm, let alone the con artists previously mentioned) of such an important subject. While we may well be "immature" as a species in many ways, given the massed experience and arduously won knowledge of the human race we can call on, the analogy simply does not hold water.

I believe I will understand some day, but in this life we don't have the categories or the foresight to understand all the reasons for God's actions.

Which, again, leads us back to blind faith and a willingness to believe. Again, this is a very dangerous attitude when dealing with such matters, as proven over and over again by the very sorts of beliefs this thread was in response to.

If I understand what you are saying here we have no disagreement. People should not be condemned to torture and death because they believe differently. I would go further. I would say that they should not be condemned at all. I would say that in the world of ideas including faith we let all of them exist in honest competition. No one should fear this.

I think the key phrase here is "honest competition" -- that would imply, all things being equal, that which is supported by evidence has a better chance of acceptance than that which does not. But, as noted above, this is not the case. When it comes to these beliefs, "the deck is stacked", so to speak, by preconditioning for an acceptance of that which does not have supporting evidence, if that which does conflicts with received orthodoxy. I'm sorry, but this is anything but honest competition; it is as loaded a deck as I've ever come across. It puts the burden of proof on those supported by observable, testable, reality, rather than those positing an airy nothing as somehow "more real"; and that, frankly, is nonsense. It is setting people up as sheep to be shorn by those willing (or even gleeful) to take advantage of gullibility; and, again, that leads all-too-often to the sorts of consequences we see here, or in Jonestown, or with "Heaven's Gate", or the Salem witch trials (or, worse yet, those in Wurzburg), or the fleecing of someone's grandmother by psychics and the like.

A longing to believe is quite understandable, and one can perhaps sympathize with it. But, to quote St. Paul: "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things" (1 Corinthians, 13:11). At least when it comes to such beliefs as these, I'd say that "putting away" is long overdue.

All things being equal, then I'd say it is a question of "half-full/half-empty"; but the fact of the matter is, things aren't equal, and we've yet to see a single drop of stuff that will bear examination, provided by the other side.

[Parson]

Originally Posted by mosaix

Parson, as for 'understanding Christian belief' and 'information about Christian understanding' - I am a an ex-Methodist lay-preacher so any pillaring of Christian belief that I choose to do (and I didn't) I do with a full working knowledge of the subject.

As for PM'ing me - I think you are confusing me with TEIN so if there's any misunderstanding going on then I think you are the one who is doing it.

Quite right. Sorry.

[Parson]

JD

Wonderfully well reasoned reply as always. Your demand for understandable evidence that we are (I said might be) too immature to comprehend God and God's actions is impossible, if indeed we are to immature. Where I see God work in a life, you see conditioning.

We may have reached our point of impasse here. Let me say these things in response. These are things I believe, and experientially for me they are true.

1. What is logical is not always true.

2. What is logical is not always good.

3. There is more truth in the world than that which the scientific method can determine.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Parson

JD

Wonderfully well reasoned reply as always. Your demand for understandable evidence that we are (I said might be) too immature to comprehend God and God's actions is impossible, if indeed we are to immature. Where I see God work in a life, you see conditioning.

We may have reached our point of impasse here. Let me say these things in response. These are things I believe, and experientially for me they are true.

1. What is logical is not always true.

2. What is logical is not always good.

3. There is more truth in the world than that which the scientific method can determine.

About the only thing I'd change here, I think, is adding "presently" in your final point. Which is where the main difference between us comes in. In my case, I'd say "We don't know" (lacking information on which to base an answer); while the alternative to that seems to be to fill that gap with an answer regardless. It's a more emotionally comforting response than not knowing, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has any validity. I'd say it's better to admit our inability to (at least currently) answer such a question rather than posit an answer which flies in the face of all the existing evidence, and has little or no supporting evidence of its own.

At any rate, this has drifted from the original point I made (despite several attempts to pull it back on topic): that the beliefs which allow or encourage such barbaric responses as those in the original post really do need to be eradicated by going after the very basis for them. It's not the people we need to eliminate, but rather the ignorance and superstition that allows for (or encourages) such fear-driven responses. Or, to put it in the simplest terms: "And the truth shall make you free"....

[TheEndIsNigh]

Tein takes out his can...

considers...

showing great restraint he replaces it and walks away.

[mosaix]

Originally Posted by Parson

Quite right. Sorry.

Apology accepted - we all make mistakes.

[R. P. Lane]

Hello j. d., everyone. I am new to this site and I have a question. I truly enjoyed this thread, in fact read it twice. I decided to post a reply but used the quick reply instead of just posting. Since my reply isn't here I can only assume that either this is a moderated site or I have sent my reply of to I don't know where.

I sincerely hope that this thread hasn't come to a close, it is the best that I have found in a long time.

[Parson]

Originally Posted by R. P. Lane

Hello j. d., everyone. I am new to this site and I have a question. I truly enjoyed this thread, in fact read it twice. I decided to post a reply but used the quick reply instead of just posting. Since my reply isn't here I can only assume that either this is a moderated site or I have sent my reply of to I don't know where.

I sincerely hope that this thread hasn't come to a close, it is the best that I have found in a long time.

Rachel,

Welcome to Chrons. Sometimes the "gremlins" get a post and it doesn't show. I've had it happen twice. Both times with a very long post (sigh!). But I don't believe there is much difference in how you choose to respond.

As to this thread, I would agree that it was stimulating conversation, but I think it has died. Unless you or someone else posts something that gets the whole thing going again.

J.D. is a moderator and has more knowledge of these things than I do. Maybe he can talk Brian, the "owner" of Chrons into doing some "magic" and raise it from the dead.

Parson

[j. d. worthington]

Parson is quite correct. I've had such things happen myself -- and not only when using the "quick reply" (I had it happen three times running with a quite lengthy post for the "morality" thread, and finally gave up in disgust -- I was not going to make yet another half-hour attempt to put my thoughts across only to watch them disappear into the void....). I don't believe your post was sent to any sort of moderated queue, unless it had a link in it or somesuch (and I've seen nothing of that sort about this thread), so I'm afraid it's likely simply become random electrons floating off somewhere....

At any rate, yes, the thread has likely died -- or at least gone into suspended animation, unless or until someone else has more to add to the discussion. To be honest, at this point, I doubt I'd be contributing more (though one never knows), due to time constraints; but I'm glad you found it of interest, and (as well as offering my own greetings upon your joining the Chrons) urge you to join into any other conversations you may find similarly stimulating....

[TheEndIsNigh]

J. D.: Yes I think this one burnt out... In a blaze of glory.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by TheEndIsNigh

J. D.: Yes I think this one burnt out... In a blaze of glory.

LOL. The deconstructionist in me is just itching to have a go at that sentence....

[Lobolover]

This thread actualy is sort of a dejavu,cause I finished my new short story entitled "The lair of the Witch" just a few minutes now.

[R. P. Lane]

Hello j. d.

I keep trying to post but I am being told that I am not logged in. At the same time just above the space for posting I am told that I am logged in. I also can't copy and paste. I thought I would outsmart this whole thing and just copy my text and if I lost it then I could try again by just pasting. LOL, copy doesn't work. What is happening?