Creating a (very) cliche world?

[TheEndIsNigh]

Originally Posted by Ghost of Harrenhal

This fellow has the right of it but you could try using "Halfing" instead of "Hobbit" and giving them shoes instead of leathery, hairy feet. It sounds like quite a bizarre idea to have one race governing over all the others and enforcing taxes and such, especially when they are creatures that eat their subjects.

Oh I don't know. Perhaps the eating didn't happen (probably cos they never thought of it or something to do with taste).
Surely the idea isn't that far away from norman times. Just about everything else went on.

[Ghost of Harrenhal]

Originally Posted by TheEndIsNigh

Oh I don't know. Perhaps the eating didn't happen (probably cos they never thought of it or something to do with taste).
Surely the idea isn't that far away from norman times. Just about everything else went on.

In norman times everyone was human I just think it is a bit strange to have one supreme race the eats and enslaves the others. It's too obvious a setting to have an uprising or rebellion in my opinion.

[TheEndIsNigh]

I'm pretty sure the normans didn't think the saxons were human. 'Humanity' for the masses is still not universal. Not sure just because you share the same gene pool it makes you mentally the same species.

Also whats the difference between us humans and the other animals that share the planet. Not so good for the cows, sheep and pigs.

Don't forget pretty soon we will have genetically modified cows because someone will be unable to resist implanting a modified cow egg to maturity. Then what? Beef that reportedly tastes like pork. In fact that could be the basis for your origin of the species. Often thought of the idea myself. Yes I know the Island of Dr. Whatever he was called explored this too.

[Mammon]

First of all… thanks for all the replies.

Originally Posted by pyan

The ones that I would be careful about using are Orc and Hobbit, both of which were invented by Tolkien, and may lay you open to people crying "Plagiarist!", or worse, "Gods, not another Tolkien rip-off..."

Really? I didn’t know it was Tolkien who invented the Orc, since it is so often used in games and fantasy worlds. I knew that he created the Hobbit though.

Originally Posted by TheEndIsNigh

Mmm... Not too happy about this either. Let's face it the 'races' you've used do have established implications. (…)

Ok I can see your point. That could become difficult when writing a story in this world. I also understand that I should not just “call a Rabbit a Smeerp” as Malloriel told.

Originally Posted by TheEndIsNigh

Also Earthling Human too confusing mixing genre.

Oops… that was a translation error. I did not write this idea in English. Should have used another name for it:P.

Originally Posted by Ghost of Harrenhal

I just think it is a bit strange to have one supreme race the eats and enslaves the others. It's too obvious a setting to have an uprising or rebellion in my opinion.

Well…I never heard the cows complaining to us:P. But seriously, I have to agree that it is an obvious setting for an rebellion. But there can be many reasons that those won’t happen and if they do, the rebels are … eaten. It is possible that the other races are scared or that the Cyrthan are with many and very strong. The lower races might possibly not rebel together because the human, elf etc. feel themselves to good for the hobbits, fairy’s etc.

But I’ll keep your opinion in mind. Maybe I will create different countries so that the Cyrthan do not rule the whole of Kouluu. What I have now is just a sketch.

I think I will first try to work out the cultures and behaviors of the races so that I get a better idea of what I want with them. Then I can think of other names for the races if needed.

[Peter Graham]

Hi Mammon

Really? I didn’t know it was Tolkien who invented the Orc, since it is so often used in games and fantasy worlds. I knew that he created the Hobbit though.

He didn't invent the actual words "orc" or "hobbit", but he certainly created what we now accept as orcs and hobbits in literature, games and so on. I think that the word "orc" appears in Beowulf. Tolkien was a professor of Anglo Saxon and (although not many people seem to know this) was in part setting out to write a mythology of the English. Middle Earth eventually becomes our world - the Shire is based heavily on the rural British midlands. It is therefore perhaps unsurprising that he used the early English texts like Beowulf as a useful resource for names and so on.

He also did much to cement our current notions of dwarves and elves. The idea of dwarves as bearded, stumpy miners who like beer and gold was largely his idea, as was the notion of elves as a high born race of harp-playing crackshots who lived in forests and had pointy ears. The original dwarves of Early English and Norse mythology were huge giants of the netherworld, and elves spent much of the last few hundred years as just another bunch of tricksy fairies.

I think I will first try to work out the cultures and behaviors of the races so that I get a better idea of what I want with them. Then I can think of other names for the races if needed.

Good idea. Any book that uses these motifs too much is always going to be compared to Tolkien, especially if you throw in Dark Lords and quests for good measure. Unfortunately, unless you can write as well as Tolkien, the comparison will always be unfavourable.

Well…I never heard the cows complaining to us:P.

You've obviously never been to an abbatoir...

But I’ll keep your opinion in mind. Maybe I will create different countries so that the Cyrthan do not rule the whole of Kouluu. What I have now is just a sketch.

Bear in mind that Dark Age and medieval kingships had environmental restrictions which don't apply today. Hostile terrain, poor communications and unwilling subjects all serve to limit the actual (as opposed to claimed) authority of feared or unpopular rulers. So your subject-eating bad guys might only exercise nominal control over large parts of their kingdom, perhaps relying on tribute or oaths of fealty from local chieftains and petty kings where they cannot rule direct.

Regards,

Peter

[Malloriel]

Also, I'm not sure how many humans you plan on having eat elves and fairies, but "food chain" as a phrase can also merely indicate a species overall level within a chain of other species, not necessarily that one above does in fact eat one below when you're talking about several groupings all basically humanoid in shape, if not thought (since orcs, ogres, and gobblins aren't well known in these parts for their cognitive skills, though they may be in your land, which would be quite interesting).

[Mammon]

Originally Posted by Malloriel

Also, I'm not sure how many humans you plan on having eat elves and fairies, but "food chain" as a phrase can also merely indicate a species overall level within a chain of other species, not necessarily that one above does in fact eat one below when you're talking about several groupings all basically humanoid in shape, if not thought (since orcs, ogres, and gobblins aren't well known in these parts for their cognitive skills, though they may be in your land, which would be quite interesting).

yes I thought of that and I think I will rely more upon this sort of chain than having everyone eating the other. That would become a bit rash:P. Though I will keep a few races that are ferocious carnivoures/amnivores. After all, it only nature

[chrispenycate]

I take it amnivores eat the afterbirth, not the placental sac off it's occupanr. Now, that is a specialised niche.
I did have a recipe for fairy cake that started "First catch five or six medium-sized faries and carefully remove their heads".
In an environment where sentience is so widely distributed, wouldn't you get sapient parasites? Sort of like physiologically adapted civil servants?

[TheEndIsNigh]

Originally Posted by chrispenycate

I take it amnivores eat the afterbirth, not the placental sac off it's occupanr. Now, that is a specialised niche.
I did have a recipe for fairy cake that started "First catch five or six medium-sized faries and carefully remove their heads".
In an environment where sentience is so widely distributed, wouldn't you get sapient parasites? Sort of like physiologically adapted civil servants?

Sounds like a poor recipe to me Crisp. The heads are the tastiest part. Unless it went on to serve them as a side dish 'delicacy'.

[Mammon]

Haha. Ok srry, my fault. I meant Omnivores instead of Amnivores. So both a plant an meat eater instead of a ... I don't know what a Amnivore is, but if it is what chrispenycate said, I think it is disgusting. Something that would be found in alien sf movies. Of course it could then also be translated in some fantasy.

[Ghost of Harrenhal]

I don't know enough of what's in your plans already to be able to reply effectively so I won't say any more. But for the people who managed to twist my words that wasn't exactly what I meant.

I guess I just find it strange hearing the words elf and human being used as lesser races that have no civilization whatsoever because they are slaves to another race. There is nothing wrong with the idea I suppose but I personally would find it too hard to get my head around to be able to enjoy properly.

Good luck though!

[Mammon]

Ok, I've created a start with the creation of 'new' orks, trolls and ogres and I wanted to post the result to see what you think.
---
In the World of Kouluu there can be found many races and each of those races has their own place in the so-called food chain. This food chain doesn’t necessarily have to mean that the top race eats the lower races, it is meant as a level of intellection. At the top of this food chain stands the Cyrthan, a grand, strong but yet elegant race with great intellectual. Though, the Cyrthan is a creature with many faces, thus it contains both elegancy and fury.

One level below the Cyrthan we can find the Baäl, the Zreal and the Loirk. These are all highly advanced races, with intelligence only matched by each other, equal level races, and topped only by the Cyrthan. The Baäl, however is a proud race and not willing to chare their wisdom with others. The proud nature of the Baäl combined with a thick yet flexible body makes can make them self-confident or even arrogant. What can sometimes be a reason for fights with other races.

The Zreal however, love to eat meat and sometimes even feast upon other races, often from a lower level in the food chain. The Zreal are also considered as the giants of the races, they are larger than even the Cyrthan are.

The Loirk, on the other hand, are considered small when compared to their equal-level races. They are of the same size as the human races and their equal-level races. Because of this, the Baäl and the Zreal sometimes consider the Loirk a lower level race too, though their intellect is higher than than of the lower races.
--
With this, the food chain would become as shown below:
-----------------Cyrthan
---------Baäl------Zreal-------Loirk
--Goblin-----Dwarf-------Human------Elf
--Gnome------Kobold------Hobbit-----Fairy
--Greenling--Groundling--Beardling--Fairling

[MetalJon]

I've read the Stan Nicholls book `Orcs' and it is very entertaining! Nice to see those ugly brutes from a different perspective.

Personally, I would stay away from using races that have been over-used in the past, and think up some new ones, create something that is uniquely your own.

[chrispenycate]

Originally Posted by Mammon

Haha. Ok srry, my fault. I meant Omnivores instead of Amnivores. So both a plant an meat eater instead of a ... I don't know what a Amnivore is, but if it is what chrispenycate said, I think it is disgusting. Something that would be found in alien sf movies. Of course it could then also be translated in some fantasy.

I invented the definition, reverse engineering it from "amnion" -the innermost membrane surrounding the embryos of reptiles, birds and mammals.

Sounded convincing though, didn't it?

[Mammon]

Originally Posted by chrispenycate

I invented the definition, reverse engineering it from "amnion" -the innermost membrane surrounding the embryos of reptiles, birds and mammals.

Sounded convincing though, didn't it?

Yeas very. And it is a logic name by how you explaine it.