Least Favorite Characters

[KiwiBird]

He probably is, however he is the daimyo, so he can't hardly fail himself, at least not in that way

[the smiling weirwood]

I think it was more like wishful thinking than actual speculation.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Originally Posted by AryaUnderfoot

I'm just waiting for brittle Stannis to break. I mean, in order to be a good leader you have to accept that it's not all black and white. Stannis is the "my way or the highway" type of leader- how many of those are shown to last, in history?

Not that I want to start an argument with Arya (because I notice most people turn tail and flee)...and I swear Im not a nitpicker, but I have a soft spot in my heart for Stannis. There I admit it. Is there a Stannis-likers anonymous out there somewhere?

Two notable "my way or the highway" from American History would be Douglas MacArthur and George Patton....Patton is famous for his obsession with the proper wear of uniform even in the midst of combat...crazy man that one

In other walks of like the NFL has Bill Parcells who has been successful at every level he's coached and been known to cut above average players if they dont buy into his system for whatever reason.

In college basketball theres good ole Bobby Knight (while I would never let my kid be coached by him) has had success while being extremely stubborn, and as an aside has the highest percentage of scholared athletes that actually graduate amongst any active college coach in basketball...

So its possible to be a stubborn "my way" leader, but the key I think is you have to be likable and charismatic while doing so. Stannis is neither...however he does display two good qualities of a leader; decisiveness and direction. You can lack charisma and be a successful leader as long as you provide those two. George Bush Sr. comes to mind...you will never be regarded as a great leader but your time will likely be productive.

Just my thoughts

[TK-421]

Well, I didn't mind Stannis at first as I also saw him as the "rightful" heir to the throne, but then Ned died, he killed his own brother, I was seduced by Dany, believe some wild theories about hidden Targaryens and started rooting for the little guy (i.e. Tyrion, Jaime, Sandor, Varys, etc.). So, really I have little use for Stannis now and really only like Davos in his inner circle (although Melissandre is growing on me).

[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

Stannis is neither...however he does display two good qualities of a leader; decisiveness and direction.

The thing about Stannis... well, there are a couple of things that I don't like about him:

First, the martyr problem. It's "oh poor me" all day long. While that's funny with Dolorous Edd, it's grating in Stannis. A more intelligent man would have used every opportunity to open doors for himself- Stannis was the king's brother, for chrissakes! (Example: Littlefinger, who didn't even start from that high.) He should have spent less time bemoaning the fact that he got the short end of the stick, and more time using every chance he got for gain. A good leader needs to see opportunity from all angles.

Stannis doesn't do that. He gripes and fumes for a while, and then turns to someone else to make up his mind. He can't think for himself; he's too blinded by his self-pity.

Just to add fuel to the fire... I can't avoid arguments, I'm afraid.

[the smiling weirwood]

Originally Posted by TK-421

Well, I didn't mind Stannis at first as I also saw him as the "rightful" heir to the throne, but then Ned died, he killed his own brother, I was seduced by Dany, believe some wild theories about hidden Targaryens and started rooting for the little guy (i.e. Tyrion, Jaime, Sandor, Varys, etc.). So, really I have little use for Stannis now and really only like Davos in his inner circle (although Melissandre is growing on me).

Well! I never liked Stannis! I'm an Old Regime kind of person and I've been cheering for Dany the whole time. I'd actually rather have ANYBODY on the throne other than Stannis. Failing all other alternatives, Hail King Hot Pie! Can you imagine Stannis with actual power? He takes his "honor"(which is nothing like Ned's, who I tthink was to be admired) TOO seriously and would probably burn King's Landing because it didn't submit to him, "The Rightful King". In fact, his obsession with correct succession is rather amusing because the ACTUAL successor to the Iron Throne is the one who's family forged it, Dany!

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by the smiling weirwood

because the ACTUAL successor to the Iron Throne is the one who's family forged it, Dany!

You hit it on the nose SW. I agree 100%. So Aegon, unfortunately it's not looking good for fellow Stannis-lovers or even likers for that matter.

[KiwiBird]

well yes and no, Dany is a girl, and we don't really know the succesion, now the closest to the iron throne if it can't be a woman is stannis

[AryaUnderfoot]

I think Dany will have the favor of the High Septon, though. And if she married Tommen it would work nicely. If.... dammit when will we know???

[cornelius]

I'ms uprised i don't see Visereys appear here... but his death made up for it

[Aegon the Unworthy]

This rightful succession crap is bunk...the people spoke on the Aerys matter already. Or at least the noble houses....they decided the Targ rule was a yoke they didnt desire any longer and had a rebellion. They won...end of story.

As Ive said before...if Dany brings an army to the shore of Westeros she is an invader not a liberator. Everyone she needs revenge on is dead...except Jaime....Twyin, Robert, Ned, and Jon Arryn were the main players....all dead. Her grandfather lost all right to the crown by being a crazy nut job...so Dany loses all rights as well...she wants a war to get it back? fine, but lets stop saying she's the rightful anything....she's bringing a foreign army onto Westeros soil that makes her a warmonger, nothing else.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Its okay by me if everyone dislikes Stannis. He has convictions, not a lot of people do in this series. With the exception of the Starks, everyone seems a little like fairweather friends. Except Courtney Penrose the Castellan of Storms End....I had an unheathly man-crush on that guy. 60 years old and irascibly challenging younger men to duels. Cracked me up....

You know what you get with Stannis...if he's your enemy he says so...if he's your friend (well you need to broaden your social circles) at least he's not going to stab you in the back. And lets be honest...we all love Davos, no one hates Davos....if you do, obviously youre wrong. And Davos loves Stannis...so why not extend a little Davos love out to Stannis by extension.

He is the only King that put aside his "kingdom" to go fight the wildlings. He abandoned his island fortress and went north to a currently undefensible position. That counts for something right? And yes I realize Davos did the talking...but honestly it was just going to make his already difficult situation worse, the fact that he even went at all speaks volumes about his dedication.

I do disagree that someone has to make up his mind for him. I think Madame M is messing with his mind a bit, and he's a tad desperate...those two factors combine to muddle things to the readers. He already decided not to attack the one island (forgot the name...sue me), and was just asking for his Hands council.

Im telling ya, he's well on his way to being despicably honorable and evil....the truest kind of villain out there. Ive said it before, he's taking up residence in the Nightfort...thats like hanging out a sign that says "demonic possession required, inquire within"....he's Lord Soth and Darth Vader rolled into one disagreeable package. He's the ultimate villain in the series...and I love how Martin is setting this up, all the petty squabbles and regicides just to put Stannis in position to help the "Others"

Go Team Stannis!!!!

[the smiling weirwood]

I can see who's playing Devil's advocate here...

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Originally Posted by the smiling weirwood

I can see who's playing Devil's advocate here...

Acch you misunderstand me, my jovial abroreal compadre....the name of the thread is least favorite characters, and that for me by definition equates to poorly developed characters. C'mon, we understand Stannis...he makes an interesting read. He at least is getting developed into a well rounded character, much like Jaime (whom everyone seems to adore)...just because his politics are different than ours doesnt mean he's not likable.

My least favorites to read about would be the Arryns (mother and son)...one dimensional mockerys they are....the elder Frey....one dimensional....at least Cersei is insane, thats fun to read.

I do have a chip on my shoulder about Dany though...this I will admit. I wont bore you with it again because Im sure most have read my diatribe and dismissed it rather quickly...and I dont blame ya

[the smiling weirwood]

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

He at least is getting developed into a well rounded character

I must disagree, I don't know if I haven't read his chapters well enough, but it seems as if Stannis is one of the flattest characters in the book, although Mr. Martin is a genius and all must admit that even the meanest character in his work is better than most writers could hope for.

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy/

...just because his politics are different than ours doesnt mean he's not likable.

Politics is compromise and debate, neither of which he knows exist. He doesn't have politics, or social skills, or a realistic world view, he has convictions. These might serve him well if they, along with stubborness and presumption could make a leader. You might say Dany is presumptous(and you have), but at least she has power to back up her claim. Dragons go far in persuasion. Burning people, forcibly converting them, and demanding servitude without any promises, even false ones, does not.