Finding potential Jedi/Sith in a galaxy of muggles

[Delvo]

In Episode I, Quai-Gonn says that if the Skywalkers lived in a more civilized part of the galaxy, Anakin would have been found by the Jedi and taken in already before he got to the age he was then. This suggests that the frontiers are good places for Sith to find apprentices, but doesn't explain how the established users of the Force, of either kind, actually find new Force-users in either type of region. They're such a tiny minority of any population that there has to be a way to narrow it down.

In the books which are set sometime after the fall of the Empire, Luke and the gang are searching for trainees for Luke. Their main method of narrowing it down to a number Luke can actually meet and check with the Force himself seems to be scanning news reports for signs that anybody is absurdly lucky and thus might already be using the Force on some untrained level. But this generally works best with adults or older minors, not very young children, and it wouldn't be very reliable, so it isn't how the Jedi did it.

But what really made me curious was that, whereas I had once thought that the Jedi and Sith Lords pretty much accounted for all Force-users, there seems to be an inexhaustible supply of more new ones that we didn't hear of before. Every time some writer thinks "Hey wouldn't it be cool if there were someone who was strong with the Force but nobody knew about, and then suddenly (s)he came out of hiding in the middle of some bigger conflict...", we get another new one. In the movies, we get not only Darth Maul but also General Greevus. In the cartoon Clone Wars mini-series, we get some black-&-white character with a hissing voice. In the books, we find out that the Emperor actually had some unspecified but large number of semi-trained "Emperor's Hand" folks and one of the Grand Admirals could also use the Force at least well enough to stand against an Emperor's Hand. And now I've seen a magazine cover talking about Darth Vader's secret apprentice. So where are all of THOSE Force-users coming from? How do the Sith find them and keep the Jedi from doing so?

[The Ace]

I think that a number of hacks have just jumped on the bandwagon. The only means of tracking potential jedi or sith is the almighty dollar.

But then, I'm a cynic.

[C Of K]

Many of these unaccounted for characters were actually associated with the jedi at one time or another. Assaj Ventress (the black and white lady with the hissing voice) for example.

General Grievous didn't actually use the force, and could never be considered a candidate for knighthood as a jedi or sith lord. He was a cyborg of sorts, engineered specifically to help reduce the numbers of jedi knights during the clone wars. He proved himself to be too much for the weaker jedi to handle, and a serious problem for the stronger jedi, and was known to take on several at a time, beating them at their own game.

The Emperor's Hands could have easily been found by the jedi order, if there had been a jedi order around to find them at the time. Their place in the galaxy came about after the jedi purge was initiated.

I must admit, I've never heard of this particular Grand Admiral before. Who was it?

Darth Vader's apprentice exists for the sole purpose of selling a video game. Though Vader's taking of an is a possibility, perhaps it should be a road left unexplored. Vader wasn't the type to take an apprentice. His son is the only candidate he would ever consider for that role. Vader seemed a very hands on character, and would rather do thing himself than send others to do them, unlike the Emperor.

The people who have created all these characters come up with pretty plausible reasons for having them, though most of the time these characters aren't very good ideas. Still, it's supposed to be a rather large galaxy. If these are a thousand people out there who can use the force and haven't been found that is still a tiny number, and would be, even in a population of only six billion

[Huttman]

Perhaps he is refering to Grand Admiral Thrawn from the Timothy Zahn novels.

[Delvo]

Originally Posted by C Of K

Many of these unaccounted for characters were actually associated with the jedi at one time or another. Assaj Ventress (the black and white lady with the hissing voice) for example.

Cool. I knew that Darth Tyrannus was a retired Jedi, which was why I didn't mention him; I knew he'd already been "found" long before, by the Jedi, so there was no mystery because it fit the known pattern. But this B&W chick just seemed too out-of-the-blue, not just because she had the natural gift, but also because she had clearly been trained and had apparently known Darth Tyrannus for a while already, with no indication of how she'd gotten that training or how they knew each other. Having them both be former Jedi makes it all fit neatly. I just wish they'd said something about it in the show, since it was apparently going to be her only appearance in the stories.

And what did they want her for, anyway? They sent her to attack Skywalker, and she did and lost. They talked behind her back about her being a disposable tool in the destruction of the Jedi, but she didn't do anything to the Jedi. You could stretch and say she contributed to Skywalker's gradual fall, because when he killed her he was having flashes of the faces of certain Jedi he thought of as being opposed to him, but he was already on that path anyway and wouldn't be led to dislike the Jedi any more by someone who wasn't a Jedi, so her role amounts to nothing. And how would Darth Sidius have passed that story off on Darth Tyrannus anyway without giving Darth Tyrannus the impression that he was looking for his replacement?

Originally Posted by C Of K

General Grievous didn't actually use the force... He was a cyborg of sorts, engineered specifically to help reduce the numbers of jedi knights during the clone wars.

The mini-series and movie didn't specify in spoken words, but his defeat of Jedi would have been impossible without it. Without the Force on his side, he'd have no way to prevent them from seeing every move he makes long before he makes it (remember, blocking blaster shots is routine for them, and even the fastest robot/cyborg arms and legs would be slower than those), crushing him with a thought as Mace Windu partially did, popping his head or arms off without coming near him, strangling him before he even knows they're there, making him float 10 feet off the ground just because it's funny, tossing him against a rock or a big machine to make a nice crunching sound... the things they did all the time to hundreds of non-Force-using robots, most of which had guns, which are better weapons for a non-Force-user to use than a light saber.

Originally Posted by C Of K

I must admit, I've never heard of this particular Grand Admiral before. Who was it?

Thrawn, the star of the "Heir to the Empire" trilogy, as that other person whose name I can't see right now said. When an Emperor's Hand tried to do the no-touch strangle on him, he felt, it like someone was rubbing on his throat a bit, but was able to counter enough that it wasn't a real problem. He then explained to her that he could do some of the low-level Force stuff himself. (I always suspected that that was part of the reason for his ability to determine important details of how others' minds work by studying their cultures' artwork and, when available, their own individual art collections.)

Originally Posted by C Of K

Darth Vader's apprentice exists for the sole purpose of selling a video game.

OK, so that's really the only out-of-the-blue one left unexplained in the in-universe context, and I can safely ignore it because the games just aren't a part of the deal to me.

Originally Posted by C Of K

The people who have created all these characters come up with pretty plausible reasons for having them, though most of the time these characters aren't very good ideas.

Well, Assaj's role in the story didn't really need to be there, but it didn't detract from it too severely either, and the rest all seem to work fine for me.

[C Of K]

Originally Posted by Delvo

And what did they want her for, anyway? They sent her to attack Skywalker, and she did and lost. They talked behind her back about her being a disposable tool in the destruction of the Jedi, but she didn't do anything to the Jedi. You could stretch and say she contributed to Skywalker's gradual fall, because when he killed her he was having flashes of the faces of certain Jedi he thought of as being opposed to him, but he was already on that path anyway and wouldn't be led to dislike the Jedi any more by someone who wasn't a Jedi, so her role amounts to nothing.

Actually Asajj had a large role in the comic books that came out after episode II. Funny enough, her target was more often Obi Wan than it was Anakin. There is a comic series called Obsession in which we get a look at a very different side of Obi Wan Kenobi, mainly because of Asajj.

[quote=Delvo;1115128] The mini-series and movie didn't specify in spoken words, but his defeat of Jedi would have been impossible without it.[/qoute]

I believe his defeat of so many jedi was sort of a precursor to what we saw the clones doing at the end of episode III. George Lucas showed that you didn't need the force to kill the jedi. When Anakin lost his limbs, he lost some of his ability to touch the force. Grievous had very few remaining biological parts. In the comics, and on the show, there was another character, called Durge, that the CIS used to fight the jedi. You might remember he was the big thing with the helmet who fought Obi Wan. His limbs continued to re-attach themselves no matter how he was cut. The jedi weren't invincible, and the trick to beating them was to keep their minds occupied until they wore down.

This was very hard to do against the stronger jedi like Mace Windu and Yoda.

Originally Posted by Delvo

Thrawn, the star of the "Heir to the Empire" trilogy, as that other person whose name I can't see right now said. When an Emperor's Hand tried to do the no-touch strangle on him, he felt, it like someone was rubbing on his throat a bit, but was able to counter enough that it wasn't a real problem.

I do remember this instance in the book, although I don't recall him saying that. Quite interesting, I know one of his Noghri bodyguards was there, holding Mara down, and her ability to touch the force was very diminished at the time.

(Nice to see you again, Huttman!)

If he did indeed have the powers to touch the force, he put far less stock in them than even Mara Jade did at the time.

[Delvo]

Originally Posted by C Of K

Actually Asajj had a large role in the comic books that came out after episode II. Funny enough, her target was more often Obi Wan than it was Anakin. There is a comic series called Obsession in which we get a look at a very different side of Obi Wan Kenobi, mainly because of Asajj.

Then the people making the cartoon should have thought about what it would look like to people who didn't read the comic books.

Originally Posted by C Of K

I believe his defeat of so many jedi was sort of a precursor to what we saw the clones doing at the end of episode III. George Lucas showed that you didn't need the force to kill the jedi... The jedi weren't invincible, and the trick to beating them was to keep their minds occupied until they wore down.

...which the clone armies and droid armies could do because they had vast numbers and guns, which meant they could fire more blasts than could be deflected no matter how fast the target is. GG had no such advantage.

Originally Posted by C Of K

If he did indeed have the powers to touch the force, he put far less stock in them than even Mara Jade did at the time.

He might also have been relatively weak with it. (Technically, we're ALL supposed to be in contact with the Force... just not very good at making that connection conscious and bringing it under our control.)

[Dave]

Don't they have some kind of Midi-chlorian Detector gadget?

Or, they take swabs of cheek cells from children and analyse them in the lab later.

A question though - who would work in the Jedi Nursery? Sounds like a dangerous place with all of that uncontrolled psychokinesis/telekenesis.

[Joel007]

I still can't believe the use of the word "muggle" in a Star Wars discussion. Yes I know it was a valid word before Harry Potter!

[C Of K]

Originally Posted by Delvo

Then the people making the cartoon should have thought about what it would look like to people who didn't read the comic books.

The cartoon was a very abbreviated version of a larger story. They did what they could given limitations placed upon them. {EDIT}Almost every episode was five minutes long, and had to lead up to the events only moments before the intro to Episode III

...which the clone armies and droid armies could do because they had vast numbers and guns, which meant they could fire more blasts than could be deflected no matter how fast the target is. GG had no such advantage.

There are places online, or in SW reference books, in which research can be done on this. I'm fairly certain there will be no confirmation on the claims that GG had a connection to the force that would allow him to command it.

Grievous was engineered for the specific purpose of killing jedi. Even without the force it could be done. On screen, in Episode II Jango Fett was responsible for shooting a single jedi off of a balcony. Jango was the only one to attack said jedi at that particular time. Whether the jedi could foresee Jango's actions before hand or not, his reaction was too slow.

He might also have been relatively weak with it. (Technically, we're ALL supposed to be in contact with the Force... just not very good at making that connection conscious and bringing it under our control.)

I have re-read the passage in question. Thrawn made no claims that he could manipulate the force. Technically everyone is suppose to have some connection, that doesn't mean they have the potential to be jedi or sith lords. Such potential was always supposed to be a rare quality.

Thrawn was considered a tactical genius, but his intelligence doesn't have to have anything to do with a connection to the force. He made most of his decisions based on logic, on assumptions that he could work out in his mind, not on gut feelings.

[Ice fyre]

Now here's a thing.

The Jedi did indeed have instruments that detected metaclorins used it Episode I.

Now IMO the Empire discredited the Jedi but very likely stopped short of wiping them out altogether. Turning the religon of Jedi into a superstion and turining the people against practiioners of it they effectivley gave themselves a secret weapon to use.

The plan in my view was to have a cadre of specilaized force users to act as body guards and enforcers. Taken from those born after the purge and trained to use their force gifts they would have been very powerful allies to the empire. Also no-one would believe in the force they would have an added layer of security.

I beleive that non core worlds were used as breeding grounds for the Imperial jedi as they would have become. One in billion they could have been turned at the Emppire's lesure to the dark side acting as spies and support personnel for Vader and any imperial officals who required them. They would have been invisble even to them selves not knowing they were force users possibly.

[Cayal]

Don't they just sense the force?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Cayal

Don't they just sense the force?

They could only sense it if it was being used consciously. For that to happen, the child would first need to be trained. Otherwise, they would just appear to be lucky.

I'm wondering, do you think that there is no such thing as luck in the Star Wars Universe? Would the Force explain all cases of luck?

Because a very lucky person would be very easy to spot. I haven't read any SW EU books, but Delvo's first post says that this is a theme within them. I have read Larry Niven's Known Space books in which Human Birthright Lotteries produce extremely lucky people by natural selection. The so-called 'Teela Brown Gene' would give some tremendous advantages far beyond the use of mind-control and forced lightening.

[Ice fyre]

Very good post dave, if you would like to have a look at the EU books I would reccomend the Heir to Empire series meself.

The force (as I understand it) is a field of energy that connects all things in the universe. A jedi master should be able to "feel" the force as it is generally quite strong in them, but even untrained weak force users could sense the Skywalkers as they are very strong in the force.

I assume a Jedi Knight would be trained to see force users, but I am assuming that any force user withnin a certain radius would have picked up Annie. I also assume that there will be cerain Jedi and Sith able to see potential users of the force.