Ands and Commas - Grammar Confusion

[Purdy Bear]

I am currently reading Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's work called A Study in Scarlet to help improve my Grammar. In the said book it sometimes has a comma before an and, and sometimes not. In one sentence it had a comma both before and afterwards. Can some please help me understand this comma rule, as it is somewhat confusing!


I have seen on TV that some expect a comma before every conjunctive, especially the and.

Thanks
Purdy

[Commonmind]

It's probably not the greatest of ideas to read works of fiction while trying to learn proper grammar. I'd suggest reading books which are meant to teach you the rules (and which ones can be bent). Not only are you contending with a particular writers stylistic choices when reading fiction, but you also need to remember that there were several parties involved in that work before it hit the shelf -- including editors which may or may not have done their jobs very well; as you've seen with the case of inconsistencies.

[Green]

A useful source of the generally accepted rules of grammar:

Strunk and White online

[Purdy Bear]

I'v read about 12 books on the subject of Grammar, it just doesn't go in my brain. I just get more confused. This is the reason why I picked a well known author to study. I guess if I can see the inconsistencies then I must be remembering something. LOL!

Thanks for the website, I have added it to my favourites.

[The Ace]

The trouble is the use to which we put the common comma;

Joe, Dave, Steve and Fred. = Simple list, 'And,' needs no comma here.

He ran the Marathon in 2hr 10min and, later, broke the long jump record. = Commas around, 'Later,' replace brackets.

There is always a comma and space before the opening of inverted commas.

There will be a comma, question mark, full stop or exclamation mark before closing inverted commas.

I want to go to the library today, and it's a while since I've looked in on Granny. = Joining 2 statements, either could be a sentence on its own and the comma indicates where the speaker would pause.

[Commonmind]

Originally Posted by Purdy Bear

I'v read about 12 books on the subject of Grammar, it just doesn't go in my brain. I just get more confused. This is the reason why I picked a well known author to study. I guess if I can see the inconsistencies then I must be remembering something. LOL!

Thanks for the website, I have added it to my favourites.

Remembering something and learning the rules are mutually exclusive. I suggest reading those 12 books again, but this time trying to retain the information as you're doing so.

Generally speaking, lack of aptitude comes from lack of motivation; you can learn, you just need to try.

[RcGrant]

That last comma before the 'and' is called the Oxford comma. As far as I'm aware, the general inclusion of it is personal choice. I love it. To me it looks far cleaner than not using it. I think (though don't quote me on this) it's more common not to use it than to use it, but it does boil down to personal preference. I'd suggest as long as you are consistent then it's not going to matter.

[Malloriel]

Originally Posted by Commonmind

Generally speaking, lack of aptitude comes from lack of motivation; you can learn, you just need to try.

I will grant that you prefaced it with "generally speaking", yet I still feel the comment is a bit harsh as anyone can have any number of reasons why certain information just doesn't stick. As you can see, she's attempted several actual resources, but the fact of the matter is they can be terribly dry and even the most passionate person can be distracted from retaining the information. I've got an absolutely brilliant friend, creative as pie, always full of ideas and the like, but it takes longer than most would expect for new information to stick, and it certainly isn't for lack of trying.

So, again, I acknowledge that you generalised the statement, but you did also make it directly TO someone, and that's where I feel the harshness comes into play. The generalisation doesn't detract from the fact that you fairly well told her she lacks motivation, aptitude and drive.

All I'm saying now is that you could easily have gotten the message across without sounding accusatory.

And to you, Purdy, I say that I do personally find the grammar books dry, boring, and full of unnecessarily complicated terms that probably only make sense in the context of the original meaning of the words as compared to their use explaining grammar to the people who set them down to begin with. I can say that for the most part, except for a HUGE predilection for sticking commas excessively throughout all my works, I use grammar in a fairly accurate sense, even if I can't tell you in a technical sense what I've done. And everything I know I learned from reading. I have to add, however, that fantasy isn't the genre you want to learn from, necessarily. Nor, really, is fiction since the things that authors do and get away with isn't always grammatically correct no matter how well it follows patterns of speech and thought.

Just . . . you know, don't listen to the grammar checker on your word processor. As Ray Gower has said on this very forum: "For what it's worth the grammar and style checkers in Wordperfect are far better than Word as well, reaching the dizzy heights of unhelpful, compared to Microsoft's totally useless and infuriating." Neither being terribly helpful at all.

[iansales]

Strunk and White is US grammar, not British. There are differences.

[Commonmind]

Originally Posted by Malloriel

I will grant that you prefaced it with "generally speaking", yet I still feel the comment is a bit harsh as anyone can have any number of reasons why certain information just doesn't stick. As you can see, she's attempted several actual resources, but the fact of the matter is they can be terribly dry and even the most passionate person can be distracted from retaining the information. I've got an absolutely brilliant friend, creative as pie, always full of ideas and the like, but it takes longer than most would expect for new information to stick, and it certainly isn't for lack of trying.

So, again, I acknowledge that you generalised the statement, but you did also make it directly TO someone, and that's where I feel the harshness comes into play. The generalisation doesn't detract from the fact that you fairly well told her she lacks motivation, aptitude and drive.

All I'm saying now is that you could easily have gotten the message across without sounding accusatory.

I stated that lack of aptitude usually comes from lack of drive (which is the truth for most individuals), not that she lacked either of those things. Granted, there are quite a few reasons people have difficulty retaining information; be it that they're easily distracted, live a lifestyle which doesn't allow them the luxury of sitting down and taking the time to really immerse themselves in the learning process (hi, I'm a stay-at-home dad), disabilities or impairments...

But again, I said that, in general, folks have a more difficult time learning because they aren't trying hard enough. This is not an accusation or an insult of her intelligence -- it's simply a statement of fact which could be an attributing factor in her having difficulties learning grammar.

I know this because the same thing plagues me as well. I've always had a hard time with the learning process. Why? Because I find that it bores me and that I dislike wasting the hours of my day reading academics rather than my favorite Martin novel. I can sit down at a table with one of my language books and read for hours and remember very little of the entire session. Am I stupid? No. Am I unmotivated? Yes, more than likely. Can I correct the situation by being honest with myself and admitting that it's completely possible that I need to try a little harder? Most assuredly. If someone else were standing in the room explaining the same thing to me, that I needed to apply myself, would I take offense to that? Absolutely not.

I won't apologize for what I said because I meant it. I have a tendency to speak matter-of-factly and while it may come off as harsh, what I'm actually attempting to do is get my point across without sprinkling flowers and pixie dust all over it. If feelings are hurt that is definitely unintended, but please do not confuse my giving my opinion in a straight-forward manner as an insult, because that's simply not the case.

[BookStop]

Hey, Purdy. You should try Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation. It's entertaining and clever as well as offering decent advice on punctuation. Might stick in the brain better than some.

[Purdy Bear]

Thanks everyone.

BookStop - Iv ordered the book from the library.

One thing I have found is that a lot of Grammar stuff is taught via books. Many forget the other formates such as DVD etc. There are videos for this subject but mostly in the style for Primary schoolers. I'm very surprised no one has thought of doing more programmes for adults on the subject. Very few things are available to those with other then the, "A typical", academic learning abilities. I am both literate intelligent , and a visual learner (see Multiple Intelligence by Howard Gardner). That is one of the reasons why I find it difficult to learn. If I see it or even hear it, I can remember it almost photographically, but sadly I have yet to work it out for text. LOL!

[Commonmind]

We have everything in common there. I've got a vast collection of physics books, especially those on theoretical physics, and after having read them all, several times over, I still find myself much more informed by a single viewing of many of the physics-based specials played on Discovery, PBS or the BBC.

[daisybee]

Purdy, I am useless at grammar, utterly stinking useless.

I confess that I apply commas and semi whatsits at will, and I have about five different books piled besides me at all times when writing in an effort to cure me of my rubbish grammar. I often find that the books are written in such a way that I end up having to look up terms used in each description of another term to the point where I begin to wonder if I did actually attend school at all. However I do try to keep looking untill I find an explanation that answers my query in the plainest manner possible. Google is fab for such questions.

In an effort to simplify it for myself, whenever I find basic explanations of grammatical issues that I actually comprehend, , I collect them together in my own version of a guide. These are from websites, books, even peoples answers on here to simple questions have been yoinked for reference. Whatever works right?

As the and, comma debate has always boiled down to style preference I always seem to fall on the side of the Oxford comma, mostly because when I read it aloud it seems to fit, and as you can see my sentences tend to require an intake of air at some point.

[Purdy Bear]

Originally Posted by daisybee

Purdy,
As the and, comma debate has always boiled down to style preference I always seem to fall on the side of the Oxford comma, mostly because when I read it aloud it seems to fit, and as you can see my sentences tend to require an intake of air at some point.

RFLOL


Purdy