English fantasy words

[zoran]

So... I live in Croatia and people here read fantasy books translated in croatian, or in english original.

Since there are much more books in english than in croatian, and since people play games (like D&D and other RPGs) in english, they are used to english fantasy words.

So, when someone translates fantasy book from english to croatian, large number of readers gets angry because "fantasy words are translated badly". For example, word "Dracolich". There is no such thing as "dracolich" in croatian. To be honest, there wasn't even such a word in english before they invented it for D&D. So, translator translated "dracolich" as "zmajoleš", that would literally mean "dragoncorpse". Readers thought this is horrible translation. Now, presume that YOU have to translate something from a foreign language to english. And the word is "Dracolich". You know that "Draco" is dragon, but what the hell is "lich"? So, you read the "Monster manual", you get to know what "lich" is... and how are you going to translate it?

And what do you think about word "Dragoncorpse"?

And how do you like english words invented for fantasy?

[Laerten]

Shouldn't a lot of invented fantasy words just be the same in whatever language they are translated into? If the word has never been used before and is not a joining of two (or more) words with acceptable meanings then I think this should be the case.

In the case of Dragolich, the translators should have just used the croatian word for dragon and then just added on "lich". What would this be by the way?

[j. d. worthington]

Simply, a lich is a dead body or corpse (hence a lich-gate for a cemetery, which was the gate traditionally used for carrying the corpse into the grounds in the course of a funeral, or for providing a temporary shelter for the bier during the funerals).

And -- though it may be a pedantic distinction -- these words aren't truly invented, but rather synthesized by merging already existing words. There are plenty of invented words in fantasy (Jack Vance used them frequently, for instance, as did Lin Carter, H. P. Lovecraft, etc.), and those really can't be translated, as they are original to the author and are the proper nouns for whatever it is they name.

On the sorts of words mentioned above, the equivalent given may be an ugly translation, and a better could perhaps be done, but this is because it is simply two existing terms with such equivalents already available in the languages concerned, rather than something truly new....

[zoran]

Originally Posted by Laerten

In the case of Dragolich, the translators should have just used the croatian word for dragon and then just added on "lich". What would this be by the way?

Croatian word for dragon is "zmaj". So translation would be "Zmajolich" (in fact "Zmajolič", because of croatian spelling).

But dictionary.com says that lich means corpse. So this would mean the same as "dragoncorpse"

[Lith]

I can see invented words being translated if they are meant to sound a certain way in English, if they're to have a strong suggestion to the reader (such as Snape being like snipe and snake or Bigger in Native Son), or if they resemble the wrong sorts of things in the language they're being translated into (such as importing the Chevy Nova into Mexico), or if they just plain sound wrong for that language (Final Fantasy Tactics has some horrid names translated from Japanese, who fabricated names supposed to sound vaguely English in the first place, but the results are awful).

Otherwise, leave them alone!

[zoran]

Originally Posted by Lith

Otherwise, leave them alone!

Yeah, well... but you see, some words can't be left alone. For example, "beholder" is a name with certain meaning. So it's plain silly to leave it as it is if you translate the book to a different language. But if the reader is used to term "beholder" because he/she plays D&D, he may reject translation claiming that it sounds stupid.

So, if croatian word for "beholder" sounds stupid to me, does the english word "beholder" sounds stupid to you - as a name for a monster race?

[Teresa Edgerton]

I think what to translate and how must be a difficult question for translators. Or at least for the conscientious ones. The others may just plunge in, reckless of the final result.

I remember reading in Tolkien's letters how annoyed he was about how some of his names for people and places were translated. He didn't mind that they had been translated, but he hated when it was done badly.

Some of my books have been translated into foreign languages. I have copies of the German translations, and (although I understand little of the language) it does look like they've translated the names of a few places, and not exactly as I would have wished them to do. But considering the crimes I have committed against their language in the way of some of the other names (which are sort of faux Germanic ), I can't really muster up any indignation.

[GOLLUM]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

I have copies of the German translations, and (although I understand little of the language) it does look like they've translated the names of a few places, and not exactly as I would have wished them to do. But considering the crimes I have committed against their language in the way of some of the other names (which are sort of faux Germanic ), I can't really muster up any indignation.

You're right that some of those names were not literal translations into German as I have some of those books you gave me. BTW, sorry I haven't managed to get through those books yet but I am trying....

[dwndrgn]

This is precisely why translators are not just transcribers. For fiction, they have to try and get the author's original intent as well as the words themselves. Just as the author has chosen those specific words from his or her native language to create a specific atmosphere, feeling or presence - in my mind the translator must try and find those words in his or her language that convey that original intent as closely as they can.

Of course there are many difficulties. What if the translator interprets a scene one way when the author meant something else? What if something needed to be described as creepy and the literal meaning when translated came out as silly?

If I were a translator, I'd literally translate the entire text first. Then read it through to find any areas that didn't cross over well and attempt to mend that. I think it would be tricky. The translator would need to know and understand the story, know and understand the cultural references for each language and their differences and work to integrate all of that into a whole, finished and enjoyable story.

I think it would be a blast!

[Connavar]

I keep it very simple. I dont read any english works,japanese works or whoever in swedish. I just read them all in english cause im used to that langauge.


Jack Vance is a good example, i cant even imagine the horror of having his words translated to swedish specially the wierd ones that only he uses invented or not.

[zoran]

Originally Posted by Connavar

I keep it very simple. I dont read any english works,japanese works or whoever in swedish. I just read them all in english cause im used to that langauge.


Jack Vance is a good example, i cant even imagine the horror of having his words translated to swedish specially the wierd ones that only he uses invented or not.

Isn't that a bit unfair to your own language?

[Connavar]

Originally Posted by zoran

Isn't that a bit unfair to your own language?

Its something i have learned.

I can read books in a modern setting, about every day life easy ie "lit" books but reading genre fiction where the authors uses many genre words,words that doesnt look as in good in swedish.


The truth is i want to read authors in their original language. Some great prose writers like Vance,REH etc, i dont want to read a swedish dude changing their words to sound good in swedish. No thanks !

Even before i read english speaking authors in their language i thought the idea was better.

Translations are far from perfect. You prove it by making this thread even.

A writer writing in his own language is as perfect as he/she writes.

[manephelien]

Of course, dracolich would logically be translated as "draklik" in Swedish, since "lik" means corpse. In fact, lich is most probably of Scandinavian origin, through the Vikings. There are lots of such words, especially in northern England and Scotland. Examples: kirk for church (kirke in Danish/Norwegian, kyrka in Swedish), bairn for child (barn in Swedish), and the ending -by in towns means town or village, so that Kirby literally means church village. There are more but those are the ones I can think of offhand.

Thus spaketh the translator!

[zoran]

Originally Posted by manephelien

Of course, dracolich would logically be translated as "draklik" in Swedish, since "lik" means corpse.

Ok, so this is what happened in Croatia: since "dracolich" comes from "dragon" and "lich", translator translated it by combining croatian words for "dragon" and "corpse".

It was in a "Forgotten Realms" book.

But, readers who read this kind of books are used to english names for monsters, because they play D&D. So they think "Dracolich" is cool name, but the same thing in their own language sounds stupid to them.

So, in one croatian forum we went analysing names of D&D monsters, and we concluded that their names are completely idiotic in their original language.

What I really want to know is this:

do you find names like "Shambling mound" or "Bugbear" or "Rust monster" to be plain stupid? In ANY language?