Book length - Is this a worrying new trend

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by TheEndIsNigh

However I think the publishers are pushing for more output from the downtrodden just to get their pound of flesh. (skin and fingernails in this case).

This is a common misconception. But publishers would actually make more money selling lots and lots of shorter books (if enough readers would buy them). A book that is twice as long doesn't sell for anything like twice as much, and readers would have to pay quite a bit more to gain the same number of hours of reading pleasure.

Nowadays publishers get the same output in terms bookshelves stocked with much less of the swill coming to the likes of us.

It always distresses me when people talk that way. On the surface they seem to be castigating the publishers (always the easy target), but they're really disparaging the tastes of their fellow readers who buy those books.

(And lest anyone think I have a vested interest in this: my own books, with only one exception, have always been of moderate length. As a reader and a writer, shorter books would be fine with me.)


P.S. Thank you, Hilarious Joke. I'm afraid not everyone views my input in quite such a flattering light as you do.

[Zubi-Ondo]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

Thank you, Andrew.


For science fiction, length is not quite such an issue...

Whew! Thank goodness.

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

At the moment, readers like stories that spread out, that have scope. A 60,000 word novel that has a tight, contained plot and is very well written might be a wonderful book, but it would lack the sweep that most readers are looking for.

So, it would seem that you are implying that the readers are somehow behind all of this? How do they manage to get their feedback to the publishers? I have never communicated any kind of feedback to a publisher about any book I've read, and I don't know anyone who does. Most likely it is based on the amount of sales for types of books, in which case it may be a very specific kind of reader we are talking about, and therefore a bit of a skewed sampling of the general public. I guess they don't care about us library borrowing, to-cheap-to-spend-our-hard-earned-cash-on-just-any-book types. I will buy a book if I borrowed it and liked it, got enough recommendations for it and it wasn't available at the library and I liked it, etc.
Ah well, The frugal be damned!

- Z.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by Zubi-Ondo

How do they manage to get their feedback to the publishers? I have never communicated any kind of feedback to a publisher about any book I've read, and I don't know anyone who does. Most likely it is based on the amount of sales for types of books, in which case it may be a very specific kind of reader we are talking about, and therefore a bit of a skewed sampling of the general public.

Readers give their feedback to publishers anytime they buy a book, Zubi. And of course it's a very specific kind of reader that publishers pay attention to: the one's who do buy their books and keep them in business. Would you really expect them to tailor their lines for anyone else? They'd go broke in a year.

When you check out a book from the library, you do send a teeny-tiny message. (More than you send if you borrow from a friend or buy your books used.) Libraries keep track of which books and authors their patrons borrow, and it effects what they order. But it's still a much smaller voice than the people who are actually out there and buying lots of books.

[TheEndIsNigh]

Teresa - It was certainly not my intention to distress anyone.

[chopper]

Originally Posted by Hilarious Joke

1. Great advice Teresa! I hope you know that everyone on the Chron really appreciates the time you take to give us some of your insights into the writing world.

seconded, HJ!

teresa's right in that science fiction does tend on average to be shorter than fantasy, (and i think that might be because sf explores ideas more than entire worlds by foot).

looking at my bookshelf (the current genre stuff only - most is in boxes in the attic), i don't have many truly short books there. Pratchett's Moving Pictures is 333 pages, David Weber's Short Victorious War is 376 pages, the Dr Who New Adventure "The Also People" (Banks homage, politely) is 289 pages. everything else is Heavy Weapons, and the fantasy volumes are mostly thicker than the sf ones.

i know that 90% of what i read is breezeblock-thick multi-volume epics, and that probably shapes the way i write too. but i've been reading it long enough that i do know (back to topic) its not a new trend.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by TheEndIsNigh

Teresa - It was certainly not my intention to distress anyone.

It didn't used to distress me; it just used to be irritating; but I've heard so much of it, by now it makes me feel weary and sad.

I think the SFF community should stick together and stop slamming each other's taste in public. (The rest of the world is usually willing to do that for us.)

It's surprisingly easy to say what we like and why we like it -- or what we don't see enough of and would like to see more of -- without characterizing what other people like as drivel. But there's this comparison thing that people get into.

Let me repeat this: I myself would be happier if books were shorter. I would also be happier if they were written with more love and skill and craft, more attention to the beauty and power of words, rather than being so plot-heavy and crowded with incident. I'd be happier as a reader, I would be happier as a writer.

But those weighty tomes have one great virtue, and this is that they are bringing a lot of pleasure to a lot of people. And since those are also the people who are buying most of the books, that's what publishers are buying at the moment.

It's my personal belief that no one should ever write anything they can't put their heart into. (Of course I don't run the world, so a lot of people do it anyway.) But most of the writers that I know are capable of falling in love with more than one idea. And right now, if you are writing in SF or fantasy -- and you're not aiming for younger readers -- and if you want to sell what you write, then it's a very good idea to spend a little time wooing whichever of your ideas seems the most likely to fill out a long book. At least court it long enough to see if a relationship develops.

Sorry for the rant, but this is the reality, and no amount of complaining about publishers or the quality of the books already on the shelves is going to change that.

* * * * *

On a slightly different note, if you're already engaged in a project, don't be afraid of overwriting, rambling on, wandering off into digressions. You can always cut them out later if you decide it's all too much -- on the other hand, those just might turn out to be some of the best parts of your story; they may include some treasures that have been hiding there in your unconscious (sly things that they are) waiting for you to discover them. You'll never know if you don't first put them into writing.

[Zubi-Ondo]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

Let me repeat this: I myself would be happier if books were shorter. I would also be happier if they were written with more love and skill and craft, more attention to the beauty and power of words, rather than being so plot-heavy and crowded with incident. I'd be happier as a reader, I would be happier as a writer.

I totally agree. Like I said before, I have a busy life and I wish I had more time to read, but I don't. So I try to choose wisely.

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

It's my personal belief that no one should ever write anything they can't put their heart into.

I couldn't agree more - this is exactly what I'm doing.

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

(Of course I don't run the world, so a lot of people do it anyway.)

Theresa for Emperor! Long live the Queen!

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

On a slightly different note, if you're already engaged in a project, don't be afraid of overwriting, rambling on, wandering off into digressions. You can always cut them out later if you decide it's all too much -- on the other hand, those just might turn out to be some of the best parts of your story; they may include some treasures that have been hiding there in your unconscious (sly things that they are) waiting for you to discover them. You'll never know if you don't first put them into writing.

This is very insightful advice, and I can tell it comes from a wealth of experience. Perhaps it should be in the writing resources section under "Author's advice".

- Z.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by Zubi-Ondo

Theresa for Emperor! Long live the Queen!

Thank you, Zubi. If I ever decide to run for that office, I'll remember that I have your vote.

But, as I said up above, the platform I'd be running on wouldn't be limited to "write what you love," but would also include "an author's heart should be big enough to embrace more than one kind (or length) of project."

(Gosh, maybe I should make a list of all these pity little gems of wisdom I've been spouting about the boards and post them somewhere.)

[TheEndIsNigh]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

It's my personal belief that...

and

....On a slightly different note, if you're already engaged in a project...

Teresa: Now much as it pains me to admit this (I am a male after all) I find myself agreeing to the sentiment of this these last two points.

I.E. I think you are right!

(of course any repetition of this admission, will of course be denied. Lets keep it just between the two of us.)

Having run through various sections of my efforts so far, I find there several passages nay, even whole chapters I could easily write to enhance and expand the characters and give the reader a more fulfilling experience.

For instance I skip over the early life of my main character in just a couple of pages with him entering a monastery with little background as to why. Plenty of oportunity there. It would also give the oportunity to build and describe the conditions and economics of his home planet.

Thanks, this has given me both a fresh insight and interestingly enough a spur to get down to the nitty gritty - (may not translate on your side of the pond -effectively the meaty bits) of the extra detail. I know realise in my eagerness to get on with the story line I've been missing a trick or two. As you say thats what editing and refinement is all about.

The bad news is I have a truckload of typewriters arriving and 100 angry monkeys demanding work and the sectret of eternal life. Still takes my mind of world peace.

[chopper]

only 100 monkeys?

more seriously, Teresa is right - rambling sometimes unearths some beauts if you let your characters run away with a conversation, for example.

have you been initiated into the Critiques yet? if you're not sure whether something is right/wrong/too short/too long/got too many jelly flannels, we're always happy to take a peek...

s

[TorrnT]

I for one, would look forward to something from "TheEndIsNigh"
(no pressure)

[Culhwch]

I'm not entirely sure what a jelly flannel is, but I don't think any book I've ever read has had enough of them...

[Teresa Edgerton]

It sounds like something you get when you don't change your toddler out of his little footie pajamas before serving him toast.

And to think I've seen so many jelly flannels in my time without knowing what to call them!

[Tobytwo]

This is a tricky one, but I agree that ultimately what is being sold tends to depend on what people want to buy. Whether or not you like it, much fantasy these days is to some extent Tolkeinesque*, and part of that Tolkienishness comes from the books being really big.

And people like that: they must do because the books sell. Personally I'm all for shorter books: just think of the power and number of ideas crammed into an old SF novel like The Island of Doctor Moreau. But fantasy in particular is about creating an entire world, and that takes pages to do properly. I myself find this odd, as the worlds are often rather similar, but when done well (as I'd say Tad Williams did in Memory, Sorrow and Thorn), you really can get "lost" in the created world. Cliche, but true.

As regards writing too much, I've always done that. I think writers should digress and waffle as much as they want when they write the story. It's the editing that counts.


*By which I mean set in a classic DnD-type world influenced by European medieval myth, etc.

[TheEndIsNigh]

Chopper : No. I'm having to turn them away in droves. This extra quest - see previous posts for the extensive list, may prove to be quite profitable. Although I have had to put the cure for poverty on hold in the hope that the secret of eternal life will turn a pretty penny or two.

It seems a lot of the monkeys are unemployed animal testing victims made redundant following the recent debacle. They seem quite amenable to a few tests on the elixier of life given projects potential rewards.

So far they haven't cottoned on to the the fact the major ingredient has its origins in certain organs of the ape family, but hey, if they spent more time studying and less time lounging about watching John Wayne films they may learn a thing or two.

As regards the critiques yes I have discovered them. However, I haven't posted any offerings as yet.

Jelly flannels ????