How to make the reader root for the villains?

[Malloriel]

You could try asking "why is this character evil" of yourself. Is he evil because you just need evil, or is he he evil because of the perceptions of other people? I see a lot of stories where, and this is bright fantasy more often than any others, good is good because it's good, and evil is evil because it's not good and good needs evil to fight against. Oh, and there's some kind of balance cause good and evil can only exist as long as the other does, but good always wins. No greater reason than that. WoT, epic as it is, still has the Creator who is pure good, and the Dark One who is pure evil with no greater explanation than that it's what he is. No "how did he get here" business (perhaps he is the sentient sum of all of mankind's own evil thoughts given power by their beliefs, hmm?). He's evil, he must be stopped, and we're going to do it.

So if you can determine why your guy does what he does, and what EXACTLY makes him evil, you'll probably have an easier time of convincing people to root for him, because they won't see this random guy doing technically evil stuff. They see the why and how, and maybe they don't agree with his methods, but it's something that must be done, by golly.

[Malloriel]

The network is being fussy right now (not mine, Chronicle's), so I just lost the brilliant reply I had for you. It was essentially this: Ask yourself "why is he evil?" If you can answer that for yourself, then readers will find it easier to side with him. Is he evil because that's how people perceive him? Is he evil because of his actions? Or is he evil because of his reasonings?

So often, and it's more prevalent in bright fantasy than in anything else that I've seen, good is good because it's good, and evil is evil because it's not good. Even in WoT, epic as it is, the Creator is pure good, and the Dark One is pure evil (traditional colours even) with no greater purpose or motivation than he's evil. We don't get any details on the how or why of his evil-ality. He just is. Perhaps he's the sum of all of mankind's misdeeds and evil thoughts grown sentient and powerful because of man's own beliefs, hmm? Perfectly possible, and a little harder to hate the guy when you have no one to blame but your own race. And how do you defeat something like that anyway? Ooooo, twists and turns galore!

So give your readers something to understand about the guy. If they know why he's doing these traditionally horrible things, gruesome and vile and inhuman things, they'll be behind him. They may not agree with his methods, but they might find a place to say "well, it had to be done."

[Malloriel]

Post number three!!! I see now that my first attempt worked. Sorry for the repetition. ^_^;

[Hilarious Joke]

Interesting points Lith.

I'm reminded of the Pirate King Kennit in Robin Hobb's brilliant liveship trilogy. I constantly wavered between liking him and disliking him, but I did always admire him. Hobb did this by having Kennit do things that seem good, but are actually just part of his ultimate aim - for example, and maybe i should issue a spoiler warning here:




He captured slave ships and released the slaves - not to do a good thing, but so that he would have a navy comprising freed slaves. Add to this some complex relationships with his 'whore' and Wintrow, a young lad that reminds him of himself, and you have a character who is hard to judge, but impossible not to admire in his vision - even after he commits dastardly acts (one in particular involving Althea).

Just thought I'd throw my two cents into the mix.

[Hilarious Joke]

Also, I feel for you Malloriel for writing out that post twice! A most annoying thing to do! But it was a good post, both times!

[thecommabandit]

Originally Posted by andrew.v.spencer

I think very often the "evil" guy does not think he is evil. His/her actions are entirely justifiable to himself. They are not always out for domination and power just for the sake of it.

This here is what you need to do with likable evil characters. Make them completely sure that what they are doing is right/needs to be done yet make them acknowledge that they are using evil means to achieve their end. As long as you don't make their actions seem burn-down-an-orphanage-for-the-fun-of-it evil through the point of the character and the they provide some justification via internal dialogue or talking to other characters then he/she will likely immediately gain the respect of some people and will probably grow on others.

[Spectrum]

Thanks for all the replies.

Originally Posted by ctg

What strikes me with your characters is that they all are mega-powerful...

Yes, that's true. (Of course, not all my characters are godlike in power. But those characters I the kind I like best, so they're the ones I bring up here.)

Originally Posted by ctg

... but does that make them more evil, then a man with a knife and bad intentions?

Perhaps, perhaps not. That depends on the motivation of the man with the knife. :P

Originally Posted by Hilarious Joke

Can I just say it all sounds pretty interesting, Spectrum.

Thanks, I'm glad.

Originally Posted by Lith

If you want readers to sympathize with their diabolical schemes, then you have to start, I think, with what you admire about their diabolical schemes. What are they hoping to accomplish? Are they tearing down a corrupt system? Constructing a new order?

Good point. Many stories focus on the destruction aspect of the villain's plan. But, as my descriptions above show, all the characters' goals are actually geared towards creation, with destruction just being a stepping-stone. I need to remember to emphasize this. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Lith

Another thing is that if you take a character and play it light in the beginning, readers will feel more at ease with them, and their later atrocities will be more horrific, like the example Teresa provided (though I don't remember liking Steerpike at any point, but I watched the tv version, so perhaps it's different...). And because the reader has been betrayed, they will hate your characters even more.

Actually, I have a character like this. Maybe I should describe him, too. Here goes.

Carzain Shireyo

Carzain Shireyo is a young human mage, around 22 years at the beginning. Unbeknownst to him, he is actually the Resphan lord Ramiel, amnesiac and incarnated in human form.

In the beginning, Carzain is idealistic and wants to fight for "good" against "evil". He hungers for glory and years to be a hero. This leads him to enroll in the army to fight in a war, and later join up with various forces in his search for "heroism". But gradually, Carzain grows disappointed with the different so-called forces of good in the world (after seeing how unlikable these can be up close), and thus disillusioned with the whole concept of "good".

At the same time, he gradually remembers more and more fragments of Ramiel, and gains access to more of his superhuman powers. This leads him to more and more seek power and glory for its own sake, rather than for moral reasons, since he grows to conclude that all morals are flawed, anyway.

Thus, throughout the story, Carzain grows more and more evil and selfish. But, importantly, we must see and acknowledge his motives and the justification for all his actions. I try to do this by protraying his "good" allies in a bad light - they may work for the greater good in a utilitarian sense, but in person they are unsympathetic bitches. (This doesn't really hold from my real-world ethical standpoint, so I need to do some obfuscation here. )

Later in the series, Carzain regains all his memories and powers and becomes once again Ramiel, the megalomaniac with imperial ambitions. At this point, his "fall from grace" (with which the reader should sympathize) is so complete that his personality barely changes. He just becomes more powerful and badass, and, knowing how he got there, we can love him in all his diabolical glory.

Originally Posted by Lith

Do you want your readers to actually sympathize with your villains, or be the type they love to hate?

I want the reader to love my characters, root for them and want them to win.

Originally Posted by Lith

Another thing you can do is introduce the character as very evil, and over time, start to examine how they got that way (Lost does this a lot). It's the same process as above, but presented in the opposite way.

Yes. I plan to do this to some extent with Secherdamon. Initially he seems purely evil, but later we learn more of his motivation and back story, what he fights for and why he hates his enemies as he does.

Originally Posted by Lith

And what about a character that does feel guilt, but still does evil anyway? There should be a sense of necessity about what they're doing, they feel they have no choice, whether because things get in the way of what they want, or because external forces limit their choices.

I intend to do this with Ishnaruchaëfir to some extent. I just have to be careful and dose it right.

I am thinking of having Ishnaruchaëfir's background be related by other characters (directly and in flashbacks) rather than from his own mouth. That way, I hope to give him depth and inner demons, but without having him degenerate into self-pity and wangst. (That would be the dreaded Spikeification I mentioned above. :P)

Originally Posted by Lith

But you also can't make your readers love bad guys. There's a certain segment of the population whom those characters will never appeal to (but you probably aren't writing for that segment, anyway).

True. What I am aiming for is "extreme dark fantasy", so to speak, and as such, there are many people who will never like my story. But I hope to hit the mark with a small group of people who think like me.

Originally Posted by Lith

But if the bad guys always win, what fun is that? It can get too depressing- why bother to tell the story?

I know. I will remember to have silver linings here and there. So that if the Dark Lord wins, conjures his daemons and conquers the city, then at least the little side hero rescues his girlfriend and escapes, to (hopefully) live happily ever after.

Originally Posted by Malloriel

You could try asking "why is this character evil" of yourself. Is he evil because you just need evil, or is he he evil because of the perceptions of other people? I see a lot of stories where, and this is bright fantasy more often than any others, good is good because it's good, and evil is evil because it's not good and good needs evil to fight against.

Yes, that can be a problem. But I hope I've already averted that with the description of the main conflict I outlined above. Both sides fight not simply for "good" or "evil", but for the survival and future of their respective races.

I also have some ancient cosmic powers that are "evil" simply by virtue of being so alien, so far removed from human thinking and human morals. Think Cthulhu here. (It's not secret that my writing is Cthulhu-inspired.)

Originally Posted by Malloriel

Oh, and there's some kind of balance cause good and evil can only exist as long as the other does, but good always wins.

Oh, gods, I hate that. "Balance of good and evil"... right. That's stupid nonsense. There can never be "too much good", by its very definition. The balance idea sucks.

The "balance of Law and Chaos" makes somewhat more sense, tho.

Originally Posted by thecommabandit

This here is what you need to do with likable evil characters. Make them completely sure that what they are doing is right/needs to be done yet make them acknowledge that they are using evil means to achieve their end. As long as you don't make their actions seem burn-down-an-orphanage-for-the-fun-of-it evil through the point of the character and the they provide some justification via internal dialogue or talking to other characters then he/she will likely immediately gain the respect of some people and will probably grow on others.

Good point. Thanks.

[Lith]

There's just one more thing- think about it a bit- evil is inherently unloveable. A sympathetic villain is not composed of pure evil; they are usually composed partly of good, partly of evil, and mostly of ego or anger (be it jealousy, disappointment, frustration, etc.). I think it's the combination of good and evil that people love, but not the bad parts themselves. That's also what divides stories from real life- you don't like assholes in real life, because they're just assholes. If you like them, then chances are that they are only assholes some of the time, and charming the rest of it.

And I don't want to hear about your characters at this time. I want to see them in print! (In other words- get writing!)

I'm not too fond of the good/evil balancing thing either, where good and bad are only such because of the labels stuck on them by the author. They are inherently different, and should be treated as such. That's where Tolkien's imitators have screwed up; by failing to give different traits to their "good" sides, and their "bad" sides. Good doesn't need evil to exist, but evil needs good to exist. The rest of it's just bad writing.

[Hilarious Joke]

I am also reminded of another great case study for you, Spectrum, and that is Raistlin the mage from the Dragonlance series. Again, like Kennit I discussed earlier, the reader constantly wavers between whether he is an essentially good character or an evil one. His constantly bad treatment of his twin brother who cares for him, Caramon, suggests great cruelty; yet his ultimate goals aren't inherently evil.

Also I'd suggest being careful with the amnesiac idea, given its prevalence in anime.

[Spectrum]

Originally Posted by Hilarious Joke

I am also reminded of another great case study for you, Spectrum, and that is Raistlin the mage from the Dragonlance series. Again, like Kennit I discussed earlier, the reader constantly wavers between whether he is an essentially good character or an evil one. His constantly bad treatment of his twin brother who cares for him, Caramon, suggests great cruelty; yet his ultimate goals aren't inherently evil.

Good point. However, I found myself not liking Raistlin. He's kind of the opposite of what I want to achieve: He has a non-evil goal in the long run, but he's an asshole to his own companions. What I want is someone who is likable (in a sardonic sort of way) to people around him, but whose long-term plans are of genocide and conquest.

To me, when it comes to sympathizing with characters, rudeness is perhaps the worst kind of crime. If a person treats those around him like ****, then it makes me hate him, whatever his ideology may be. But if he's charming and polite about it, then a villain can get away with almost any atrocity in my eyes.

Originally Posted by Hilarious Joke

Also I'd suggest being careful with the amnesiac idea, given its prevalence in anime.

Haha, yes, that's true, I remember encountering a few of those. You thinking of stuff like Rurouni Kenshin or Samurai Deeper Kyo? (Those sucked, BTW, IMO.)

Well, the basic idea stays. It's too deeply ingrained in the story to change now. But I'd be happy if you have suggestions for specific pitfalls and cliches to beware.

Thanks for the replies.

[ctg]

Originally Posted by Spectrum

Good point. However, I found myself not liking Raistlin. He's kind of the opposite of what I want to achieve: He has a non-evil goal in the long run, but he's an asshole to his own companions. What I want is someone who is likable (in a sardonic sort of way) to people around him, but whose long-term plans are of genocide and conquest.

So like GW Bush and Dick Cheney? I don't know how you are going to do it, but I raise my hat if you manage to achieve it.

[Spectrum]

Originally Posted by ctg

So like GW Bush and Dick Cheney? I don't know how you are going to do it, but I raise my hat if you manage to achieve it.

Haha. Nah, Bush and Cheney are not quite badass enough to be candidates. Osama Bin Laden might fit better... :P

[ctg]

Originally Posted by Spectrum

Haha. Nah, Bush and Cheney are not quite badass enough to be candidates. Osama Bin Laden might fit better... :P

Right, well, I would recommend you do bit more reading, but it's your believes and your story. Good luck with it.

[Spectrum]

Originally Posted by ctg

Right, well, I would recommend you do bit more reading, but it's your believes...

You sound disapproving of my last post...?

Let me stress that my aim is NOT to justify anything or relay any kind of moral message. My story actively glorifies evil and is thoroughly immoral. So you should not try to extract my ethical beliefs from my writing.

Originally Posted by ctg

... and your story. Good luck with it.

Thanks.

[Ursa major]

I'm rather fond of the BBC Radio 4 comedy "Old Harry's Game"; it's one of those comedies where the audience is meant to laugh (rather than cringe or become depressed, which seems to be the only aim of some programmes, sadly).

Anyhow, very few of the characters are what you might call lovable (it is set in Hell, after all, although you might be surprised at who can be found down there), but the writing and performances are such that you find yourself rooting for one or other of them, including Old Harry himself on occasion.


There are audio tapes (with all 36 episodes between them), but I don't know if you can get them where you live.