Grammar Tips

[Purdy Bear]

Can any of you wonderful,terrific, brilliant writers give me some grammar tips?

I'm reading the books, and watching TV programmes about the subject, but I just know there are those little things out there that just get passed word of mouth that help no end (for example, the I before E except after C thing).

Even some ways to remember the grammar rules would be gloriously helpful!


Hopeing for loads of help.
Purdy

[Marky Lazer]

It's "hoping."

[Lith]

There are lots of books on this subject... Strunk's elements of style probably tops the list. Zinsser's On Writing Well (I think that's the title?). I use Simon and Schuster's Handbook. Just buy one, read it, keep it.

For rhymes, maybe browse the children's library? There's gotta be basic grammar books in there, too.

[Troo]

Apostrophes: Possessive or indicative of removed letters only. They are not for use as and when you feel like making a mark on the page.


Their = correct
They're = correct
Theyre = WRONG
The'ir = WRONG
Greengrocer's = WRONG
Greengrocer's Market = correct, if the market belongs to a greengrocer

[Donna Scott]

I sometimes find online newspaper style guides quite invaluable. They're often contradictory, but still...

Collins Good Punctuation is a good little guide. Some writer friends also recommend Lynne Truss's Eats, Shoots and Leaves, but I haven't read that one myself.

...incidentally, see what I did with the apostrophe in Lynne Truss's name. There is no defnite 'correct' way of using an apostrophe after a name ending in 's', but you will see that being the subject of argument quite frequently. I always use the apostrophe-s, as in 'St James's Park', but you will see examples like Mr Jones' umbrella used by other people.

[Zubi-Ondo]

Originally Posted by Purdy Bear

Can any of you wonderful, terrific, brilliant writers give me some grammar tips?

I'm reading the books, and watching TV programmes about the subject, but I just know there are those little things out there that just get passed word of mouth that help no end (for example, the I before E except after C thing).

Even some ways to remember the grammar rules would be gloriously helpful!

Purdy

Wonderful, terrific, brilliant? *looks around* Well, I might be the most wonderful, terrific, brilliant writer right now, since no-one else is here at the moment.

I remember a funny little sentence our grammar (English) teacher told us about. "They say time flies, but how can we when they go so fast?"
I'm guessing it was an example of what not to do. The confusion being whether "time flies" was an expression or a command. Slightly better would be: "They say to time flies, but how can we when they go so fast?"
Still, there is most likely an even less confusing way to say that.

But seriously, you are aiming for the "broad side of a barn" as they say. Grammar is such a vast subject that they have entire courses in school devoted to it. The suggestions about grammar books are good if you're going to be doing a lot of writing. If you had some specific questions for us, I think they would be much easier to answer.

In fact, this might be a good place for a grammar thread - I did a search and didn't find one. What do the Administrators think? Could we have a thread where people could ask specific grammar questions?

One specific question I have is in this situation: "Jim went to the hospital where you work to see his dad. Could you say hello to him for me?"

The question is who am I asking the hospital worker to say hello to, Jim or his dad?

- Z.

Wait! This just in! Here's a good link. I don't know why the search engine didn't come up with this:

Some tips to help new writers with grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc...

(It was in those "related" links at the bottom of the page)

Wait again! (Double wait??) Here's another one I thought was useful. It's a bit more advanced:

University College Writing Workshop: Writing Handouts

[Purdy Bear]

Thanks for that zubi.

I suppose the basic thing I need to know is, what goes where in a sentence? I know there has to be certain things like a noun, verb but what order do they need to go in, or does that change. I know people say I have the French view of reversing the two.

Thanks again
Purdy

[Xwing Mom]

In a sentence, the formula is: article, adjective, noun, verb, adverb, rest of sentence (for clauses or prepositional phrase: prepositon/clause word, article adjective noun)
Here's an example:
The little brown hen flew suddenly into the thick, dark firs.

For a question, the formula is:
Here's an example: question word (who, what, when, where, how), helping verb, noun, verb, article, adjective noun.
When did Clark fix the old computer?

The main thing to remember is that adjectives precede (go in front of) nouns and that the verbs usually come after nouns, except in a question.

Good luck!

[chrispenycate]

The French invert (relative to the English, and mostly, not always) nouns (which are objects, things) and adjectives , which describe nouns. Verbs ("doing" words) are described by adverbs (generally ending in "ly")
Sentences generally contain a subject (a noun), a verb (describing what the object did, or was) and frequently an object, on which the subject verbs ( He - subject ate – verb cake - object.
Unfortunately, by the time I've finished with a sentence it's frequently gained so many pronouns (a and the), conjunctions (ands, buts and ors and the like) subordinate clauses, descriptive phrases, unecessary adjectives or adverbs, parenthetical interventions and other such junk you can't easily find the original structure (as evidenced by this particular one.

But it all comes down to speech patterns in the end. The absolute order is fairly flexible, but there are only one or two ways in which it sounds natural out loud.
It's the same thing with punctuation; if you pause naturally in speech, there should be punctuation there.
Not everyone speaks with the same rhythms, so speech patterns will change from writer to writer. You won't write the same sentences as I do, not only because of different vocabulary, but different logic processes. The English language is flexible enough that both of us can be correct.

Learning to speak grammatically (except in reproduced dialogue, which is another situation alltogether) will probably not come out of grammar books, but by absorbtion from books you read. While copying styles is not always o good idea, reading enough that the right prase sounds – well, right – can be more helpful than somemebody shouting at you "It's not off of!"

[pyan]

Originally Posted by Purdy Bear

Thanks for that zubi.

I suppose the basic thing I need to know is, what goes where in a sentence? I know there has to be certain things like a noun, verb but what order do they need to go in, or does that change. I know people say I have the French view of reversing the two.

Thanks again
Purdy

Generally, and I mean generally, the verb comes before the noun referred to:

He opened(v) the box(n)

Adjectives come before the noun:

He opened the red(adj) box(n)

Not:

He opened the box red

Adverbs, though, can go either before the verb or after the noun:

He carefully(adv) opened(v) the box
He opened(v) the box carefully(adv)

And the rule about having to have a verb and an object in a sentence isn't an absolute: "Hello, everybody!" is a perfectly good sentence without a verb in it...

Edit: must learn to type more quickly!

[Purdy Bear]

Thanks for all your tips. I have made a note of everything you all have suggested.

Hugs Purdy