Janny Wurts vs J. R. R. Tolkien

[The Procrastinator]

I had missed this thread...I'm with Clansman, I don't think the similarities between Wars of Light and Shadow and Tolkien's work are particularly striking - there are a lot of other stories out there who come a lot closer to Tolkien. As for who I like best out of the two, I would choose Tolkien - LOTR is a desert island book for me, I reread it roughly once a year. WOLAS has stood up pretty well to rereads - those are a necessity because the story is so long and complicated, and chock full of significant little details - but not as well as LOTR, for me. I'm sure I've mentioned before how some of Janny's wordiness really makes me want to get out the red pen! So as much as I enjoy WOLAS, if I had to pick, its Tolkien for me.

[Grimward]

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Elves and Paravians it is, Dek (not knowledgeable enough about the others, especially those from TV, to form a reasonable opinion).

How about this one: Tolkien's elves, specifically his Eldar and most specifically his Noldor, almost always receive identities. Whether one is discussing the strongest personality (e.g., Fëanor) or a rather quiet one (Celebrián), if they have a role in the story, they receive names at least, and usually personality descriptions where they do not have "first person" participation.

Wurts, by contrast, will occasionally name the centaurs (e.g., Shehane Althain), but otherwise, when a Paravian appears, they are almost of one mind and body, and it wouldn't matter whether one Riathan (again, for example) replaced another, or a different Sunchild had administered to the removal of the curse from Arithon; their actions and responses would largely be the same, regardless of which member of their race was involved. A curious thing, too is the importance that knowledge of a true name has inside Wurts' creation, and the fact that the sunchildren and unicorns almost never (I would say never, but it's hard to remember that exactly when the story spans more than a decade in the workings) have names, at least not such as are revealed to us....

[dekket]

Cianor Sunlord is one of the sunchildren with a name (and perhaps the most famous/widely known Paravian High King), but I get your point.
Paravian actions are consistant (and within the Law of Major Balance), whereas Elves tend to be much more individualist.

But could this difference just be because Tolkien let us see so much of the Elves firsthand (in the Silmarillian, and in the Lord of the Rings).

Sam, (back before they embark on the quest to destroy the ring), when his only wish was to meet Elves, had a childish impression that one Elf was much like any other.

And in the Hobbit, the Elves of Rivendell were very much a vague, interchangable crowd of fey beings. Only Elrond Half-Elven was a true personality in this book (the Elven King of Mirkwood (father of Legolas) was more a stereotype than a true personality).

However, when a more detailed look at individual elves occurred in the Lord of the Rings, and in the Silmarillian, elves became much more individual (Galadrial, Haldor, Legolas, ), and less a general force.

Perhaps when Janny finally reveals a living paravian presence, they will become much identities also.

Also, the (s'Valerient) Paravian that came to intervene on behalf of Jieret s'Valerient was (in my opinion) very much an individual.
But that could have been due to his personal outrage at the treatment of his clanmate at the hands of Lysaer.

[Grimward]

Agree with much of what you say, chief. Sam (and almost all the rest of The Shire, for that matter), however, was extremely naive as to Elves (or anything more than 20 miles from Hobbiton, including Bree, for that matter).

Couldn't remember whether Cianor was a sunchild or not...caps off to you there, as usual (not for nothing are you "The Researcher"). Doesn't help that Cianor's not in Stormed Fortress' index (under Cianor, anyway), though....

I agree about Jieret's Paravian ghost, but again, that was a Centaur....

Re Tolkien, he changed quite a bit from Hobbit to Silmarillion (mostly completed right after Hobbit) where his races are concerned, and indicated in Letters that, had he the chance do it over, he might have changed a number of things about the way the characters in the Hobbit were portrayed.

[pyan]

Yes, the elves in The Hobbit bear little or no resemblance to the Eldar of LotR or the Silmarillion - can you imagine Círdan, Fëanor and Turgon singing

O! Will you be staying
Or will you be flying?
Your ponies are straying!
The daylight is dying!
To fly would be folly,
To stay would be jolly...?

But in a more general sense, there are a lot of things in The Hobbit which sit badly with the other two books. This is a legacy of that book being written as a purely childrens entertainment, and makes for some awkward comparisons between the details at times.

[Grimward]

*chuckles at thought of Fëanor singing ANYTHING to Sam, much less that rhyme*

Then again, Fëanor would have smirked at the ring, and also probably have succeeded (presuming he could be bothered) where Finrod failed; defeating Sauron mano a mano....

[dreir]

I haven't read too many Wurts books (specifically, only 2, unless you count collaborations), so I can't really contribute to the topic at hand, but I feel I have to respond to suggestions that 'one should not even bother to read her books, then'.

First of all, if you ponder on it long enough, you'll realise that everyone rips off of everyone to some extent (give me two books between which I can't point out similarities?), so as long as it's not too blatantly annoying, I don't see much point in dismissing an author outright because of it, particularly if by so doing you're missing out on other things.

Secondly, of all the fantasy writers I've read, Wurts, I feel, writes the best kind of prose there is out there. At her best, she reads like one of the classics, her words as efficient and evocative as Hemingway's. If she were to write contemporary fiction, she'd probably be a legend by now. She is, indeed, as someone said in one of the other threads, one of the most under-rated authors in fantasy.

- Dreir -

[Clansman]

Originally Posted by dreir

Secondly, of all the fantasy writers I've read, Wurts, I feel, writes the best kind of prose there is out there. At her best, she reads like one of the classics, her words as efficient and evocative as Hemingway's. If she were to write contemporary fiction, she'd probably be a legend by now. She is, indeed, as someone said in one of the other threads, one of the most under-rated authors in fantasy.

- Dreir -

Give that lady a cigar!!! Hear, hear!! Wurts' writing does read like one of the classics, and I feel like I am being transported back in time when I read any book in the WoLaS.

What books of hers have you read, Dreir? Just curious.

Okay, now that I have stopped cheering, I don't agree that "everyone rips off of everyone". A ripoff is stealing, whereas a lot of what occurs in literature is influence. There is no question that Janny Wurts was influenced by Tolkien, and obviously Ray Feist, her one-time co-author. But there is certainly no rip-off, per se.

Terry Brooks' Sword of Shannara verges on a rip-off, and perhaps crosses the line. Dennis McKiernan's Iron Tower is a blatant rip-off, posing as a tribute.

[dreir]

My apologies, but perhaps it wasn't clear that I was being sarcastic..

I should've changed the phrase "if you ponder on it long enough, you'll realise that.." into "if you ponder on it long enough, you can make it out to be that.."

I was trying to say that if you think hard and long enough, you can basically 'prove' anything you want, so I find any argument that rests on such premises not a good factor to base your decision-making on (in this case whether to read her or not).

The books I read are Stormwarden and Keeper, and the Empire series if you count collaborations (which, by the way, I find a lot better than anything Feist writes on his own!). I have yet to find Shadowfane on any bookshelf here. And stranger still, I always see Ships of Merior everywhere but no Curse of the Mistwraith. *sigh*

- Dreir -

[dekket]

Dreir,

I enjoy Feist, but I do agree with you that the Empire collaboration (in fact pretty much all of the collaborations he has done) are better than his solo pieces.
Have you tried looking for Shadowfane and Curse of the Mistwraith at any of the online bookstores?
Or easier yet, have you asked to see if your local bookstores could order them in?
They are both well worth the effort to get them!

[Clansman]

Curse of the Mistwraith is really easy to find with the second-hand on-line sellers, either in paperback or in hardcover. I have used Abe Books with a great deal of success on other titles in the past, but, of course, this depends on one's location in the world, and the cost of shipping often exceeds the cost (not the value!) of the book. I note that Drier is in Malaysia.

There is also a thread that lists all of Wurts' titles, including the Wars of Light and Shadow books and the short stories (there are currently three of those, with one forthcoming) set in the WoLaS universe. Here is the link: Janny Wurts publications list

[dreir]

Thanks, dekket and Clansman

I am, indeed, in Malaysia. I'm not very good at online thingys and I distrust credit cards (actually, I distrust myself with them), so I have a problem getting them from online shops . I did actually ask a couple local stores but to no avail. Haven't asked again for a while now so I guess I'll give it another try some time in the coming weeks

- Dreir -

[Clansman]

When I purchase on-line, I use one card that has a very low limit, so even if their is a fraud, I can only get burned for a limited amount. Also, most credit cards these days, so long as you report the problem promptly, do not require the cardholder to be responsible for fraudulent activity. Simply check your statement, and advise them if a transaction is fishy.

In the alternative, you can use PayPal, which you simply top up as you need. I have never used it, but it is a decent alternative. I have used money orders, but that requires a bit of trust of the supplier.

[Althain's Warden]

Whoa there Zedlav! If you abandon any author because of there being some similarities with another then you really should stop reading any books ! Within all genre's of work there are common recurring themes at the heart, it is part of what defines a book into its genre. Whilst there is plenty of non tolkien like work you could still draw similar themes from any fantasy book in print, i guarantee it.
As for ignoring JW in particular as an author, its obviously up to you but if, in general, you like detailed story, descriptive prose, talented world building and don't mind long series then there is no real reason Janny is not for you, If you prefer shorter works then her stand alone novel To ride hell's chasm and also her earlier short trilogy's are quite enjoyable as well.

[aussie500]

I actually think the only real similarity between Tolkien and Wurts is that both built such a wonderful place full of interesting characters for the fans to fall in love with. But Grimwards post below I just had to reply to.

Originally Posted by Grimward

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Elves and Paravians it is, Dek (not knowledgeable enough about the others, especially those from TV, to form a reasonable opinion).

How about this one: Tolkien's elves, specifically his Eldar and most specifically his Noldor, almost always receive identities. Whether one is discussing the strongest personality (e.g., Fëanor) or a rather quiet one (Celebrián), if they have a role in the story, they receive names at least, and usually personality descriptions where they do not have "first person" participation.

Wurts, by contrast, will occasionally name the centaurs (e.g., Shehane Althain), but otherwise, when a Paravian appears, they are almost of one mind and body, and it wouldn't matter whether one Riathan (again, for example) replaced another, or a different Sunchild had administered to the removal of the curse from Arithon; their actions and responses would largely be the same, regardless of which member of their race was involved. A curious thing, too is the importance that knowledge of a true name has inside Wurts' creation, and the fact that the sunchildren and unicorns almost never (I would say never, but it's hard to remember that exactly when the story spans more than a decade in the workings) have names, at least not such as are revealed to us....

Although there might yet be some truth to Grimward's idea's concerning the unity between the Paravians, it might actually be significant which one answered each time. Just like with Ath's Adepts there would be a reason why that one responded, even if we have yet to learn the Names of some. There is actually a reason why Janny is so sparing with the Names. Janny gives us some very vivid, interesting characters, and the Paravian based names chosen for most of them usually have some meaning. They are not just randomly chosen, but fit each character and tell us a bit about them. However the Names are also often clues to other things as well. Each Paravian Name is building up our knowledge about the language and eventually someone is going to unravel its secrets. We are sometimes introduced to new characters, especially in Initiate's Trial, yet we never learn their Name, Janny is a bit sneaky about disguising that, we learn a bit about the character and never notice we never found out the Name. We can guess those ones have no significant role in the story, although sometimes again there could be a reason for not disclosing that Name at that point in the story. Occasionally we might get a Name and Janny does not give us the meaning in the glossary. The Paravians themselves are also a mystery, Janny gave us some names, but she is very miserly with handing out any others or identifying the Paravians we have actually seen. I believe this is mainly to keep some aspects of the story hidden till the final book, we did finally get the Name of the Centaur who appeared to both Lysaer and Arithon, the name was not what I was expecting it to be, but then Janny might have revealed a nick name and a common name for the character in the earlier books, but not the true Name. Arithon is known by other names so it is possible some of the Paravians might be as well. So even suspecting something, I still have to wait till the end of Destiny's Conflict, or Song of the Mysteries to actually find out who that centaur actually was, the Name does not seem to have revealed the answer. But just revealing the Name gave us an interesting new understanding of part of the Paravian language and added some more food for speculation since we now know what the suffix 'ch' means. As usual Janny had already slipped a Name in that had one meaning, yet also has 'ch' on the end.

Another interesting thing that came out in Initiate's Trial is that even some of the non Paravian based names might be clues. Because if any fans were actually looking at the language, after nine books you would have to wonder what Janny was hinting at with some of the latest non Paravian based names. It could be every single name in the WoLaS series has some significance, even those that at first were ignored.

And the language Janny uses to tell the story is equally filled with alternate meanings and hints, which is one reason why those who re-read the books might notice other things after they have already read the later books. Tolkien never made his books that interesting that I would spend so much time re-reading them trying to pick apart the prose and imagery to get at more of the story. Janny's WoLaS series is more like a sparkling gem, interesting and well polished, but damn hard to see what is inside for all those reflections. Like any good mystery writer, Janny will likely leave us speculating till the final book, where all the secrets and mysteries should be revealed.