Janny Wurts and systems of magic

[Grimward]

Haven't actually read any of the Forgotten Realms stuff (which, given it's perpetual residence on paperback shelves here in the States, seems a little amazing). First impetus was to 'splain some more about Zelazny's shadows/shadow-walking, but considering the topic further, I would never do something that could keep someone from reading Zelazny again!

[Clansman]

Originally Posted by dekket

If the order was already set up with the multiple levels of initiation (similar to the Masons, perhaps) then it would be only natural that the head of the order would hoard the most secretes, including magic. The next level down would know slightly less, and so forth, all the way down to the novices knowing the bare minimum to be able to operate.

This makes me wonder about Koriathain origins. Are they the descendent of a female version of the Masons (which now exist, I understand), or of a woman-only group based on Dianetics and Scientology? The structure of the guarding of the knowledge appears similar.

[dekket]

I tend to picture the order more along the lines of a female version of the Knight Templar - an order set up with a public stated objective (to bring Compasion and Mercy in the case of the sisterhood/to protect pilgrims in the holy land in the case of the Templars) but who really have - or perhaps develop - another agenda.
They rise to be incrediably powerful for a time, but circumstances have brought them low (or at least lower than the rightful place the sisterhood believes that they should be in).

However, I would find it very amusing if they turn out to be the ultimate evolution of the mergin of Scientology and the girl scouts.

[Grimward]

Originally Posted by dekket

However, I would find it very amusing if they turn out to be the ultimate evolution of the mergin of Scientology and the girl scouts.

Hehehe!

I kind of think of them like the Bene Gesserit from Dune, Dek, although without the alien characteristics and packing quartz crystals!

[dekket]

The Bene Gesserit actually were "good guys" though, even if most people feared/misunderstood them. And they were a sisterhood that was entirely self aware, of body and mind. There abilities were all derived from self-discipline and awareness.
The Koriani most definately aren't the "good guys", and are lacking awareness. All their arts are (so far/apparantly) derived from forced compulsions and are layered in deception.

[Clansman]

The Bene Gesserit were good guys?!?!?!?!? I seem to remember a great deal of behind the scenes manipulation, coercion, a breeding plan, control of the kwasach haderach (I just know I spelled that wrong!) so that they could control, well, everything. They would determine whether or not a guy could boys, girls or have no kids at all.

Although the Emperor and the Harkonnens were the obvious bad guys, the Bene Gesserit were no angels by any stretch. The thwarting of the Bene Gesserit was a major goal of Paul Atreides, and even his mother, in Dune.

No, the Bene Gesserit were not the good guys, at all.

Very similar in many respects to the Koriathain. Might be worth mentioning in the Koriathain thread.

[Grimward]

I'd echo the Clansman, Dek. In contrast to the darker similarities, many of the "lesser" Koriathain are described as engaged in service to the poor and sick, or doing other works of public service (even if the top levels of the Koriathain twist these deeds into obligations to be called in like poker chits at need). There's plenty of evidence that even some of the higher levels only engage in Morriel/Selidie's plots because she has the means to compel them (ie, their vows under the Waystone). No, the beast is diseased all right, but the infection starts at the top, at least the way I see it!

[dekket]

I'm looking at a 'big picture' look at the entire Dune Saga.
Granted that whilst in the first two books (Dune and Dune Messiah) the Bene Gesserit are firmly in the anti Maud-Dib camp (mainly because he was the Kwisatz Haderach born a generation to early, and out of Bene Gesserit control), being against Paul Atreides and his son Leto II (the God Emperor) made them antagonists, and doesn't make them 'not the good guys'.

In the struggles following the Scattering, where the Honoured Matre's are the 'bad guys', the Bene Gesserit are the 'Good Guys', or at least the bestest of the protagonist groups.

I believe that the Dune Saga is great in that as the series progresses, the cultural point of view changes, so that yesterday's enemies became the heroes of tomorrow.

And anyway, breeding useful traits into a species is not necessarily a bad thing. The Tyrant/God Emperor/Leto II bred the ability not to be detected by prescience into the Atreides gene pool.

[Clansman]

Sorry, but the whole breeding idea seemed a little too, well, totalitarian to me. Compromised free will, which the Koriathain do on a regular basis, or at least manipulate it as much as possible.

It is obvious that Herbert did not foresee genetic engineering. The Bee Gees could have achieved in the lab in a few years what it took them millenia to breed.

[The Procrastinator]

Didn't Herbert get around that by banning computers?

[Grimward]

Originally Posted by Clansman

The Bee Gees could have achieved in the lab in a few years what it took them millenia to breed.

Honestly Clansman, the entire breadth of human evolution spread out before you, awaiting your normally deft touch, and you go with the Bee Gees?!!

While I'd be inclined to agree about the forced breeding (to quote Bush the Elder as portrayed on SNL, "Scary, Scary"!), having not read beyond the first Dune book (well, OK, I did read the one about the robots, but there's relatively little on this subject in that work), I yield the floor on this point.

[dekket]

Artificial insemination was banned (along with computers). That is why there was such a fuss about Paul Maud-dib refusing to consumate his marriage to Princess Irulan. I believe there was a passage somewhere in Dune Messiah that covered this.
This ban kind of rules out genetic tampering in a lab. Hence the (manipulated) breeding plan, to introduce the desired traits into the (controlled) gene pool.
Is it really that much different to the introduction of the various traits into royal/clan bloodlines?

[Clansman]

Hey, I thought "Bee Gees" was funny and apt, if a trifle obvious. Doesn't top my naming the Koriathain the "Twisted Sisters" though, I will admit. I do have something of theme going, and I couldn't call them Bon Jovi (wrong letters).

I had forgotten about the A.I. ban and the other A.I. ban (artificial insemination and artificial intelligence), but I still think that Herbert did not foresee genetic manipulation, which was only a few generations away from his writing (though he did see it in his really scary book, The White Plague).

I think that the breeding thing was totally different than the introduction of the royal traits and clan bloodlines in WoLaS. The F7 took those traits that they found and augmented them, with consent (LotMB). The Bee Gees did whatever they bloody well wanted without anyone's permission.

Should we get back on track with systems of magic? I just finished my re-read of To Ride Hell's Chasm (I forgot how fun that book was!). There are three magical systems in that book:

1. Sorcery: demon-bound sorcerers use black magic to gain control of larger and larger areas and more and more people. The sorcerer is the slave of the demon, not the other way around. If the sorcerer runs out of people, the demon gets to torment his soul for eternity. The demon uses the bound souls of humans to expand its power.

2. Vizier: the antithesis of sorcerers, they engage their art in defence against sorcery. They use geometric patterns and cartesian mathematics imbued with power to defend against demonic magics.

3. Shamanism: these fellows ally with the Viziers, but they sing their music into patterns on objects or into tattoos on a person's body. They also are able to heal individuals, so there is more than just defence against sorcery to this magic.

Any thoughts?

[Althain's Warden]

I would put forward the forgotten realms novels in particular the Drizzt series as having (whilst quite a simple) a very varied system of magic powers. There is obiously the classic d & d mage system, tribal magic, innate abilities, psionics, clerical magic and druidic magic. I think every power displayed in the world setting pretty much falls under one of those headings. Whilst all of those spheres are treated in a relatively simplistic way (so as to maintain the fast pace of the story) the variety lends the world a nice credible feel to it imo.
All this said i have to agree that Wurts use of magic has so far been very impressive, i really like the masterbard aspect of her magic as well as TLofMB. The necromancy bit was also very well done, not the usual necromancy from d & d style but sinister all the same.
Have been working for years on trying to develop an original idea for a magic system and always find the best i can come up with is a twist or new slant on an existing idea. Beginning to wonder if either everything has kinda already been hinted at or (more likely ) my brain is being retarted ! lol

[GOLLUM]

Off-topic: Well Althain, as much as I admire Janny's work and her magic systems I haven't found a better one that Erikson in his EPIC Malazan novels.

If you want to study someone who really knows how to put a new twist on something old Erikson is a good starting point.