Writing SF/F short stories - useful for novelists?

[Doctor Sax]

In line with what's been said before, my personal opinion is that the best thing to do is just write - whether it's novels, short stories, character sketches, vignettes or shopping lists. If you're not feeling up to the commitment to a novel, then do some short stories - they don't necessarily have to be for eventual sale. They could just be to sharpen dialogue, play around with styles, experiment with characterisation. Do some exercises in plotting as well... some people just dive into a novel and start writing, other people have plot points and chapter breakdowns on bits of paper, some people do full spreadsheets of plots, sub-plots and plot spikes. Horses for courses. Short story writing might not help or hinder your novel writing one way or the other, but all writing is ultimately useful.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by Hilarious Joke

But surely Teresa you must agree that its really important to write, and thus short stories might be a good idea if you want to complete something, or if you want to explore an idea, or you're enthusiasm for your main work is flagging.

To keep on writing and learning and improving is the important thing.

And you are far, far more likely to do that working on a project you feel passionate about. So of course, yes, if an idea comes along that you love and believe can best be written at short story length, then work on that. Or if you feel that you've lost the spark on something old and you think that a change will freshen your mind up. But the important word there is you. So long as the impulse genuinely comes from you, rather than because someone has told you that it's a better way to work.

What I was actually saying with this comment, if you read it in context, is that a lot of "aspiring novelists" are actually procrastinating and aren't, in all honesty, 100% serious about writing for publication. More power to them. However, one way to get into the whole publication process - writing an entire, self-contained story, finalising a manuscript, sending it out, dealing with rejections, dealing with publishers, editing, re-editing, seeing your name in print - is to write short stories.

But getting into the whole publication process can be a way of procrastinating, too, Locksmith. It's not writing. Ideally, it should come after your writing has developed for a long time, and you genuinely believe you are ready for publication, rather than because you think its a good way of getting critiques. Rejection letters rarely provide critiques, and when they do they are likely to be very, very brief. You have a better chance of learning how your writing improves by joining a good writers group.

And here is the thing: a lot of writers think that getting a few short stories published paves the way for their novels to be accepted, and that sounds logical on the face of it -- but in practice it is far more likely to go the other way. I know writers who have been selling their short stories to pro and semi-pro SFF magazines and anthologies for years, but when they start submitting novels to publishers, they don't sell them -- even though the editors know them, know how good they can be -- because each work has to sell itself, and some writers are better at writing at one length than they are at others. I know one writer, she wrote beautiful short fiction, stories so beautiful some of them they could make you cry, stories that have been nominated for major awards. And she could not write a successful novel, although she tried and tried. Eventually, she grew discouraged and stopped writing fiction at all. Which I think is a great loss to the field.

As for the thing I said about it working the other way around: magazines and anthologies need familiar names on the cover. Where do they generally get those names? By publishing writers who have made their names as novelists. They will, of course, include stories by other writers solely on their own merit. But in order to get those stories of greater merit into the hands of readers, they have to include a few stories by Joe and Jane novelist. If Joe and Jane also write awesome short fiction, so much the better. But if Joe and Jane only write pretty good short fiction, and have a considerable following as novelists, they are still likely to get the nod. They may even receive invitations to submit to invitation-only anthologies.

But that's not a reason to write a novel first, although logically it would seem to be. The reason to write a novel is because the story you want to write is a novel. Just as the reason to write a short story is because the story you want to write at that moment is a short story.

It doesn't matter which path you take to success, or if the path branches. But for this kind of decision, go where your heart and your talent lead you, don't feel that you have to follow somebody else's trail.

[ctg]

I see short story writing problematic after written a novel length. This is because I am now used to constantly expand the ideology, scenes and the plot. Writing a short story has been experiment, that I have done to entertain people and to see if I can do it. Like people above say, the short stories are useful for testing ideas, characterisation etc. etc. But they are also useful to raising one profile in the writing circles, as every bit of publicity takes you that little bit further on being a successful Author. Only celebrities get straight away deals with the publishers. Rest of us has to do it hard way.

PS. Before anyone says, yes I agree, there are first time writers who hasn't done the short stories etc. etc. It still doesn't say that they couldn't do that, does it?

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by ctg

It still doesn't say that they couldn't do that, does it?

No one is saying that you can't go the short story route, if that is what you really want to do, and become successful. The point is, don't write short stories you don't already want to write, because you think it's a better road to success. It isn't.

Only celebrities get straight away deals with the publishers. Rest of us has to do it hard way.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Do you mean that first time novelists don't get offered book deals unless they already have publishing credits or happen to be celebrities? Or are you saying something else that my five-o-clock in the morning brain is failing to understand?

[Scarfy]

(Brain begins ticking over)

So... IF I want to get a book published then all I have to do is become famous FIRST and it'll be easy..?

Sounds like a plan! Right, what can I do to become famous?

[John Jarrold]

No, you don't have to be a celebrity to get a book deal. I have done nine multi-book deals for debut SF and Fantasy novelists in the last two years - and none of them are celebrities! What they are is exceptionally talented writers whose prose, stories, characters and settings all enthused a publisher sufficiently for them to be taken on for publication. And all of them have worked on their writing for years.

Never compare yourself with celebrities whose biographies or novels are taken on. That is a commercial decision that has nothing whatsoever to do with taking on a new fantasy writer - or a new crime or thriller writer. Every book and genre is dealt with separately by every publisher. Much of the time, there is one reason why a book is turned down: the writing isn't good enough.

[SJAB]

Teresa mentioned what I believe to be the crux of the matter in her post.

The reason to write a novel is because the story you want to write is a novel. Just as the reason to write a short story is because the story you want to write at that moment is a short story

John also mentioned the main point that a lot of want to be writers find hard to swallow;

Much of the time, there is one reason why a book is turned down: the writing isn't good enough.

If you can accept that your current "baby" is not up to the mark, you have, in my opinion, two options. Cry woe is me, no one understands how wonderful my writing is and sit, sulking, and never get anywhere. Or you sit back down and start thinking, how can I improve my writing and start producing a new "baby", which might, and I say might, make it into print.

I honestly think you can't start second guessing the industry when you don't have a product to sell. Produce a product that is the best you can do, then study the market and try and place the work where you feel it might (again might) find a home. If it doesn't try again, each time try and do it better. It might not work, but unless you try you will not make it at all. Also listen to those in the business, go to conventions, read as many blogs by industry people and writers as you can, treat it as a job you want to have, and sadly you have to ditch the rose-tinted glasses, they don't help at all.

[ctg]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Do you mean that first time novelists don't get offered book deals unless they already have publishing credits or happen to be celebrities? Or are you saying something else that my five-o-clock in the morning brain is failing to understand?

Say you're a celebrity, and you announce in middle of televised interview that you have been doing a novel (even if you haven't). This will be heard by many people and probably yield you a couple of more interviews by national papers. Certain parties read this and start to approach your publicist who asks about the deal from the celebrity. Announcement being bogus, publicist deals with the damage and hires a ghost writer for the celebrity. Nine months later book sees daylight in shops. The celebrity gets all the fame, while the ghost writer gets money to keep his or her mouth shut.

In this example a group of people around the celebrity make sure that deal is solid and nobody is any wiser and before you say, it won't happen. It has happened.

Rest of us have to work very hard on getting the deal. That's how the life unfortunately works. Also I'm not saying that celebrity book is any better then any other book out there, because it might be even worse.

[Doctor Sax]

Too many people see publication as a "right". It's anything but. Submitting your manuscript to an editor for consideration for publication is comparable to applying for a job. If you have the right qualities, qualifications and experience, to wit:

Originally Posted by John Jarrold

What they are is exceptionally talented writers whose prose, stories, characters and settings all enthused a publisher sufficiently for them to be taken on for publication. And all of them have worked on their writing for years.

then you might - might - be considered for the job. But even if you have all that in spades, there's no guarantee. Publishing is a commercial business, and there has to be a justification for the amount of money that will be lavished upon you and your book to get it on the shelves of the stores. Plenty of people with spotless CVs get turned down for jobs for a variety of reasons, just the same way that many good books get turned down for publication. All you can do is be the best that you can be, and do everything that you can to give yourself the edge over those other job applicants, or aspiring authors.

[Scarfy]

At bit like turning up for X-Factor then, eh?

[John Jarrold]

Originally Posted by ctg

Say you're a celebrity, and you announce in middle of televised interview that you have been doing a novel (even if you haven't). This will be heard by many people and probably yield you a couple of more interviews by national papers. Certain parties read this and start to approach your publicist who asks about the deal from the celebrity. Announcement being bogus, publicist deals with the damage and hires a ghost writer for the celebrity. Nine months later book sees daylight in shops. The celebrity gets all the fame, while the ghost writer gets money to keep his or her mouth shut.

In this example a group of people around the celebrity make sure that deal is solid and nobody is any wiser and before you say, it won't happen. It has happened.

Rest of us have to work very hard on getting the deal. That's how the life unfortunately works. Also I'm not saying that celebrity book is any better then any other book out there, because it might be even worse.

I'll say it again: ignore celebrity books. Just get on with your own writing and make comparison with other books in your own genre!

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by ctg

In this example a group of people around the celebrity make sure that deal is solid and nobody is any wiser and before you say, it won't happen. It has happened.

Rest of us have to work very hard on getting the deal. That's how the life unfortunately works.

Of course it happens, but it has no relevance to this conversation. You don't leap into celebrity status by publishing short stories in SFF magazines.

And the rest of us do have to work hard on our writing. Short stories or novels, it doesn't matter so long as we are willing to put in a tremendous amount of work. And we do that when we love what we write.

After that, to get the deal, we do some research on markets and formats, and then send the book out* (one, twice, fifty times), and eventually it sells itself -- or not. Sending the book out takes no particular effort (print out a copy, put it in an envelope, go to the post office -- an hour or so of your time), but it can be repetitive and the repetitions add up. Still a writer would have to send it out to about a thousand publishers to equal the amount of work he or she should have put into writing the book in the first place.

*Or we self-publish. That's a whole different story and a whole different topic.

[Troo]

My god. I'm sick for a few weeks, and ctg goes and mutilates himself!

[ctg]

Originally Posted by Troo

My god. I'm sick for a few weeks, and ctg goes and mutilates himself!

LOL, I wrote a little joke to my stand-up comedian friend about it.

I did cut tip of my thump today and I told that to my other half, who's feeling sickly in the bed. She told me to go back and not bother her with it. So I asked, 'Is it ok to chop off other bits?' She answered, 'Yea, as long as you don't bother me with it...' That's true love, eh?

[Troo]

Aww, how sweet of her