Most thrilling fight...

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I agree with everything Boaz and tSW have posted...even where they disagree.

Sandor needs a cause. More than any character he needs something to commit himself to because left to his own devices he is self-destructive to the extreme. Sadly I think he knows this as much as I do, hence his loyalty to Joffrey, Sansa and Arya in succession. He takes the fights of children as his own (Joffrey excluded) but tempers them with his own sense of self-loathing. He needs something to redeem his own childhood and prove he's better than the people around him. He talks tough but we know the truth...

So far he's been consumed by getting a chance to strike at Gregor. Thats been his cause, the hate, anger, sense of betrayal have consumed him and it shows in his outward demeanor. There is good inside Sandor but his mission drives it out.

I think if he found a cause to devote himself that at its core was a righteous endeavor he would slowly transistion to something else. He would never be "flat" and without an edge but I think we would be able to put him on the side of the heroes after he finds the right cause.

Dedication to the Boy King would have served....becoming Aryas protector full time, being Sansas sworn shield against Petyr, the sword arm of the church....any of these would have done....

My only fear is that Sandor will get to destroy the reanimated Gregor without finding a new cause and then be left with nothing inside to keep him from destroying himself.

[Qhorin Halfhand]

Originally Posted by Boaz

Arianne Martell is gorgeous, rich, sensuous, and spoiled. Oberyn Martell was an insolent, arrogant, lecherous, jack-a-nape. Jon Snow was raised as a lord's son, adopted a direwolf, had thrilling adventures during which he broke every last rule of the NW and yet was pardoned to become their leader... a virtual king... and oh, by the way, he's destined to be the hero of the age. Robb Stark was a handsome young king. Danaerys Targaryen is beautiful, powerful, and destined to rule with her dragons. I could'nt give a fig about Dany, Robb, Jon, The Viper, Arianne, and BFS. The story that they are in is wonderful, but these perfect people bore me. And I never even mentioned any Tullys. I could go for hours on them! (Actually, Catelyn is now an intriguing chacter.

I'd disagree that any of those characters were perfect. Arianne Martell was, as well as being spoiled, incredibly small minded, reckless, so on and so forth and ended up imprisoned for it. Most of the traits you listed for Oberyn are flaws and he died for his arrogance, Jon's one of the characters who has the most positive events occur in his life but he still has had to get over his inferiority complex about being a bastard and nobody liking him in training, wah wah wah. For me, the characters who are scarred and broken like Sandor or Lady Stoneheart are only slightly interesting, mirrors held up to people like Jon or Tyrion who try to do good things despite the flaws that could drag them down to a much lower level if they let them. The characters aren't perfect, they're flawed but that's what makes them more interesting than the usual "heroes" in many fantasy settings.

This is way off the topic of the most thrilling fight. I recently read The Hedge Knight and that book is mostly about fights and they're all really fun I think the high point is the description of the days jousting though, things like the Grey Lion jousting without a helmet and the Humfreys and so on.

[Thalador]

Perfect characters? I guess you haven't read The Lions of Al-Rassan. Made me want to vomit. I agree with Qhorin; nearly all the characters in ASOIAF exhibit significant flaws and experience inner struggles. Most - at some point - lack confidence in their actions. Just because they emerge triumphant from conflicts doesn't make them perfect. In fact, many don't (Eddard, Robb, Oberyn). To get where they are, "perfect" characters like Jon and Danaerys have endured much and surmounted personal obstacles.

[MrWright]

Thanks for the derailment everyone...I'm loving the direction this is taking

So far, I don't really see any character as "perfect".

The conflict between Stannis and Jon is becoming interesting (finally).

Now that Jorah is gone, the Dany story is relatively dry...until she meets up with Tyrion

I'm hoping the Hound isn't dead, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for his return.

So far, IMO, the character with the best direction is Jaime....of all the characters in the story, his changes and revelations are the best done. The revelation about him becoming the Smiling Knight rather than Ser Arthur was masterful.

Bran's story is the least interesting ATM...but has the potential to not suck depending on what direction he takes once he becomes whatever he's bound to become...(wizard or whatnot)

[Hilarious Joke]

I personally found Stannis a boring character, a character so twisted by his own sense of honour and his bitter feelings towards his brother that I can't really relate to him as a person. And perhaps that's at the heart of the whole thing we feel towards characters, its how well we understand them. I detested Jaime before his POV was added, but now I understand him and his motivations, he is one of the best chars (imho).

[the smiling weirwood]

You hit upon the reason Stannis is the sole character I dislike. I cannot relate to him. Every other character in the series, even Cersei, I can empathize with to some extent, some more than others. Except for Stannis. He is just so....

Agh, anyway, I can't express how deep my hatred for him is. He is boring. And selfish, and delusional, and childish, and utterly without redeeming qualities. I just can't relate to such an unfeeling, unmoving person. He is stubborn like stone and just as interesting. I can't imagine how such a person could exist or think, so I can't relate to him. Without being able to empathize with him I cannot see his side of events, and am thus forced to accept the narration of others as the truth, which is not a favorable light to see him in.

[MrWright]

I never harbored any love for Stannis other than the fact that he alone had somehow managed to cheat death in the game of thrones and stands as the rightful heir (as far as the Baratheon lineage goes) to the Iron Throne.

I had some respect for him for being so adherent to the laws and being fair. However, my interest in him has greatly waned since it seems like he's now just a puppet for Melisandre instead of his own man.

[Hilarious Joke]

What's the go with Melisandre anyway? What motivates her?

[Boaz]

HJ, that's the $60,000 question. We know that Stannis is not Azor Ahai reborn, why does she not see this? Or does she? If she does, then she has serious hidden agendas that we are not yet privy to and this heightens my tension.

Did I use the word perfect? Maybe I did... I'm too lazy to look it up. From my perspective, neither Arianne, Oberyn, Daenerys, Jon, Robb, nor Catelyn have suffered limb amputation, cannibalization, or being turned into barbeque. Oh they have emotional troubles... Boo hoo, my father, Lord Eddard, raised me with the finest education and training in the entire country, but he never legitimized me... Boo hoo, my father, Prince Doran, gave me everything I ever wanted, but he never told me he loved me more than my brother... Cry me a river.

I've said it before, I think that GRRM has done an admirable job by developing characters that we either love, hate, admire, despise, respect, or deride.

[Qhorin Halfhand]

Originally Posted by Boaz

Did I use the word perfect? Maybe I did... I'm too lazy to look it up. From my perspective, neither Arianne, Oberyn, Daenerys, Jon, Robb, nor Catelyn have suffered limb amputation, cannibalization, or being turned into barbeque. Oh they have emotional troubles... Boo hoo, my father, Lord Eddard, raised me with the finest education and training in the entire country, but he never legitimized me... Boo hoo, my father, Prince Doran, gave me everything I ever wanted, but he never told me he loved me more than my brother... Cry me a river.

I've said it before, I think that GRRM has done an admirable job by developing characters that we either love, hate, admire, despise, respect, or deride.

Technically Oberyn, Robb and Catelyn have suffered a reasonable amount but I take your point which is essentially that we all have different taste in our favourite characters and you prefer the *really* messed up ones

[Shacklock]

What Boaz is trying to say is that too many characters are...EMO!
*Grabs the sharpened knives and pointy sticks and goes on a culling*

[Mechaniik]

I think the thing with Melisandre is that she so desperately wants to believe its true that she's deluded herself - Maester Aemon says as much to Sam the Slayer when he's dying.

[YOSSARIAN]

First off-Oberyn v. the Mountain is the best duel EVER WRITTEN OR FILMED, including non-fictional duels. (Best "duel" between three people is the climax of The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. Best "duel" between one person is Tyler Durden v. Tyler Durden.) Sorry for going off on a tangent. I also enjoyed Strong Belwas v. the hero of Mereen just because it was very crudely humorous.

Since Melisandre has been brought up, I have an idea I don't think has been mentioned. Her prophetic abilities are pretty damn impressive-is it maybe possible that she is not deluded but has actually manipulated events to occur exactly as she wants them to? Could it be that she has been playing Stannis, claiming to aid him while intentionally sabotaging him? She seems to be able to see multiple futures-it is possible that she had seen Stannis and his "duty" and "honor" getting in the way of the War for the Dawn UNLESS he was too weak to muster opposition to whatever force she supports, while still keeping him strong enough to support her real hero-Jon Snow Stark Targaryen Ahai. Honestly I'm just playing devil's advocate, but it's something to think about.

[the smiling weirwood]

Since when has Jon been the prince that was promised? His theorized Targaryen heritage notwithstanding, there is already a personage of royal blood who has awoken dragons. Ipso facto, Jon can't be it.

[YOSSARIAN]

Originally Posted by the smiling weirwood

Since when has Jon been the prince that was promised? His theorized Targaryen heritage notwithstanding, there is already a personage of royal blood who has awoken dragons. Ipso facto, Jon can't be it.

I'm speculating that Melisandre may believe that Jon is TPTWP, not that he actually is. The Jon sample chapter on GRRM's website is the impetus for this idea (based on my interpretation on the dialogue). My idea is that she is moving from Stannis to Jon, possibly because she has seen a future with Jon and Dany's dragons and mistakenly starts to view Jon as Azor Ahai.