Who is your favorite character is ASOIAF

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by KiwiBird

Iforget about all the other information we have gotten

Well, that's where your analysis starts to falters. Dany's claim is not one in the same as Stannis' or Tommen's.

This may be a simple case of either you are with the usurpers or the ursurped. Or, more plainy put, you either like her or you don't. It's clear many of you do not. I'm not the biggest fan either but she has much promise as a character and in advancing the whole storyline. More so than Stannis, Tommen, Joffrey, Robb or Renly ever do or did.

Now, Dany joined up with Tyrion, Barristan "freakin" Selmy, Victarion and Varys (and potentially Littlefinger in the backgroud) as advisors and she becomes an even greater influence on the outcome of the series.

[KiwiBird]

Basically what you are saying is that if you view the Baratheons as usurpers, she is the rightful claimant. However then you move the discussing in the camps who belive in predestination and those who dont. If you believe in predestination and say that from the moment the world was created, the creator already had this life-design planned for her, long before she was born.

This does not change the character own feelings though. Even if everyone's life is predestined, it is not like everyone goes trough life saying it is my destiny this, it is my destiny that. Dany herself never stated it was her destiny to rule westeros. Therefore se herself has not considered that all her actions had been decided for her long ago. No she makes her actions based on her feelings, and as far as we can tell the feeling that it is her destiny to rule westeros is not a feeling she has. She does show other more basic feelings. there are times when she speaks of revenge, and so on. In the end (to me at least) it comes down to veiled greed. that is the underlying emotion, her underlying feelings. Especially when you keep in mind that there are many kinds of greed.

[TK-421]

As you point out, not all is predestined. While it is my firm belief that Dany has a destiny (and I never said it was to rule Westeros - it may be to fail trying to do so and in the end bring peace to Westeros through her failure) the problem with destiny is that it sometimes get derailed or sidtracked by that all-to-human element of choice.

Only Dany can choose whether to pursue her destiny, be it perceived or not. That does not make her greedy but rather exercising her ability to choose as a leader, which is something she certainly is, like it or not.

But there is certainly an element in this discussion of you are either with her or not. And yes, I view the Baratheons as usurpers.

They fit the definition from Webster's Dictionary:
Main Entry: usurp
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French usorper, from Latin usurpare to take possession of without legal claim, from usually (abl. of usus use) + rapere to seize — more at rapid
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
1 a: to seize and hold (as office, place, or powers) in possession by force or without right <usurp a throne> b: to take or make use of without right <usurped the rights to her life story>
2: to take the place of by or as if by force : supplant <must not let stock responses based on inherited prejudice usurp careful judgment>
intransitive verb
: to seize or exercise authority or possession wrongfully

[KiwiBird]

So basically what you are saying is conquering several cities, conquering westeros is only exercicing her ability to choose her as a leader...

[the smiling weirwood]

I never said anything about a creator or predestination, nor do I believe in such a thing, but in the context of the novel it is plain that Dany's function as a character is to either reconquer Westeros or fail trying. She can't just go live quietly after being a Khaleesi and hatching dragons, can she? Even if she wanted to the world wouldn't let her.

She has the only legitimate claim to the throne of Westeros, such that it is. I don't feel as if the pursuit of that is something morally wrong, why do you?

If you have a personal gripe with Daenerys as a character that is your prerogative, but to claim such and such motivation for such and such action or perceived action without any support from the text is simply incorrect. You could say you believe Dany is greedy, but stop making statements based on nothing but personal sentiment because then it becomes less of a discussion about a book and more of a personal reflection time or whatever you want to call it.

[KiwiBird]

But that is the essential difference between the two of us, the emotions we give to her plan to reconquer Westeros.

Unlike you i dont feel like that she has not other choice but to conquer westeros. If she is willing then she could live a somewhat quiet life in the sunset lands (?). indeed she shas given ample opportunity for it, for all we know she could have lived in the home of the dothreaki with the other women of deceased Khals. She could marry some rich dude, and live in some city, she could do tons of things wich do not require her to go conquer some country. But she HERSELF chooses a different path.

As for her legitimate claim, that too is debatable, after all the Targaryen life has been dethroned. Thus removing all their claims to it. Yes you can call the Baratheons usurpers, but that does not change the fact that if she wants westeros (a country wich she barely knows about) back, she will have to fight for it. (at least as far as she knows up till this point).

As for your last comment, that is just out of line. I have no personal gripe with dany, i just say how i read it, if you read her chapters again, you will find that it is not so hard to identify this emotion in it.(if you allow yourelf to look for it.) It is not so hard to back it up with canon. It is all about interpretation of the facts, and that is how i read her action, and comments. I have always said that that is how I feel about it, how i think about it. This is a forum after all where you discuss different opinions about the book. What is the point of a forum otherwise.
It seems to me that you're just having problems with somebody seeing her in that light, instead as some (here follows an exaggeration) 'Angel girl with lots of leadership abilities yet to develop with will peace a plenty and victory against the others'. Truthfully i am certain she will play a major role in defeating the others, she might even succeed in bringin peace to westeros, at least for a while since no peace lasts forever. That doesn't mean she is an angel. If you make an analogy (wich too is an exaggeration) with King Kennit in Liveship Traders, you see that he accomplishes many god things with a rotten character. By no means is Dany 's character as rotten as kennit, she is no angel either.

[KiwiBird]

As for her pursuit being morally wrong:

Her father Aerys was rightfully dethroned. (there can be no dispute about that.)
If westeros (wich granted it is not atm) was at peace, Dany out of personal desire (after all she chooses to exercice her claim to the throne, instead of just letting it be) would bring war, death and destruction to westeros. Whats more to do so, she must bring to an extent war so the sunset lands since she needs to form up an army.

What is not morally wrong with that. Is she so much better, is her blood so much more important then every other living thing must bow down to her. In the end she is just a girl out of many. Ofcourse it is wrong to bring war to a peaceful country out of from my point of view a petty desire. Petty because she knows barely anything about westeros.
yes, she has lost family members, yes she lives in poverty, yes there are thousends of people who have family memebers and live in poverty as well. What she does to me feels like warmongering.

I am sorry, but i feel this is wrong, she could accept what happened, and maintain the peace. Maintaining the peace for the geater good is morally better then bringing war to westeros. It is not as though her family has been so awfully wronged when it comes to ruling. As i said Aerys got what he deserved. True things should have been handled better with the rest of the family. It is both her bad luck and in some ways luck that she is related to him.

Remember that atm she knows nothing of the Others. So you have to leave all that out of the equation, when it comes to dany's motivation behind her actions.

[Tansy]

I'm sure somewhere way back in the day the first Targaryen ruler usurped someother Dynasty. To rule a land and give it stability you need strength, strength to protect your citizens, strength to hold your borders, strength of character and personality to keep the population happy with your rule (or if you are a tyrant strength to beat them into submission and fear)

Aerys was a was weakened by madness and it was this weakness that lost him his throne.

Westeros is hardly at peace at the moment and many factions test their strength to seize the throne. Whoever is stronger or clever will end up with it, it could be Dany, it could be a number of other contenders or it could be someone totally unexpected. The Lannisters have become weak since the maiming of Jaime, death of Tywin, mad machinations of Cersei and disgrace of Tyrion. Tommen is going to be short lived as boy king. With the threat of the others looming in the North Westeros needs a figurehead that will unite the kindom and rally the troops to fight this threat. To do this people will need to be killed as there is no way the throne will be conceeded without a fight. I'm not saying it's right it is just the way things are in Westeros.

I do believe that those who think they are born to rule probably shouldn't be allowed to

[TK-421]

Not surprised, given the track record, to see that one's sense of moral superiority trumps all others.

In the end, I think anyone who knows they will never be able to live in peace because there are assassination plans against them would not see the choice as being so black and white. No choice such as gthe one faced by Dany is ever as clear as simply choosing between two paths. One can never fully anticipate the curves in each path.

[the smiling weirwood]

Originally Posted by Tansy

I'm sure somewhere way back in the day the first Targaryen ruler usurped someother Dynasty.

Not true, the Targaryens created the Iron Throne by forging the Seven Kingdoms into a united nation. There was no parallel before their landing.

[Tansy]

So presumably their were 7 independant monarchs of 7 lands that had to give up their supremacy to bow to the Targaryens?

[KiwiBird]

They killed 3 kings i think, 3 others lowered their head in submission, and Dorne came under their wing later on. I think. I am not sure how many kings died and how many bowed their heads, the king in the north knelt, other then that ... if you reallly wished to know you'll probably find ur answer in the tower of the hand.

TK please explain to me how you consider dany's invasion of westeros her single choice left. Personally i am somewhat starting to feel that you vehement objections against this possible (out of many) point of views is more because it is my point of view than out of the point of view itself. I might be wrong ofcourse.

tansy, as for westeros being at peace, i know that is not the case, but the point i am trying to make is that dany does not know this at the moment.

[lauren20062001]

I agree that Dany did make a choice when she decided to gather an army and prepare to invade Westeros. But living in peace wasn't really a viable option. Robert had been attempting to assasinate her, so it's reasonable of her to assume whichever claimant triumphs she'll still be on a hit list. Perhaps she would have eventually been forgotten, but Dany might not think that. Perhaps she believes the only way to live peacefully is to claim the Iron Throne. That said she is still placing her own happiness and 'rights' above the lives of the other claimants and peasants in Westeros, not sure how great of a ruler that makes her.

[Tansy]

She is very naive if she thinks being queen of Westeros will enable her a peaceful life

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by KiwiBird

TK please explain to me how you consider dany's invasion of westeros her single choice left. Personally i am somewhat starting to feel that you vehement objections against this possible (out of many) point of views is more because it is my point of view than out of the point of view itself. I might be wrong ofcourse.

Of course you are but don't take my posts personally as simply opposing yours for the sake of opposing since it came from you. It is never wise but rather vain to think that one's opinion matters that much. Simply put, get over yourself.

To repeat an earlier post: I never said that it her destiny to conquer Westeros but it may be that her destiny is to fail trying to conquer Westeros and by failing, bringing peace. That is but one of many possibilities that I see.

This is becoming one of those times, Kiwi, of knowing when to stop before you repeat a pattern. I would hate for any further insinuations to come of this exchange. I accepted your opinion long ago, I simply do not agree of your black and white assessment of Dany's character. Leave it at that.