New law in Israel

[Foxbat]

I'm quite alarmed at the new law that's just been passed by the Israelis. Basically, it means that a Palestinian/Israeli married couple either has to split up or leave the country.
I understand the reasoning behind it...quite a few of the Palestinian suicide bombers had Israeli citizenship but I still think it's the wrong way to go.
My own background is Scots/Irish (Catholic father, Protestant mother). We all know about the Irish troubles and I've always believed integration to be the best way to solve our racial/religious problems (lets face it, most of us are of mixed descent if we go far enough back in time). Or as our immortal Bard would say 'We're a' Jock Tomson's Bairns'.

[brian]

I hadn't heard of that - in fact, seeing what you posted I thought it must be some form of bad internet rumour, so I did a search of the BBC site.

I didn't find quite the same degree of details - certainly in terms of separating people - but a law has indeed been passed preventing marriage between Arab_Israelies and Palestinians.

From the BBC:

Israeli law limits Arab citizenship

The Israeli parliament passed a law preventing Palestinians married to Israelis from gaining Israeli citizenship.
Human rights groups have condemned the law as racist but supporters say it is necessary for security reasons and to maintain the Jewish character of the state of Israel.

The law will prevent Palestinians from the occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza from marrying Arab-Israelis, who make up about 20% of the population of Israel.

A total of 53 deputies voted for the measure and 25 against, while there was one abstention, according to a spokesman.

Until now, the Israeli interior minister has had the final say on whether Palestinians who marry Israeli citizens can receive citizenship and make a home in Israel.

Interior Minister Avraham Poraz said he welcomed the proposed bill - reluctantly.

"I wish we didn't need this law, I'm not thrilled with it, but there was a government decision and I must follow it," he said.

According to the government, 16,000 applications were approved in the past decade after intense security checks.

Controversy

But the minister in charge of relations with parliament, Gideon Ezra, has defended the bill on the grounds that 30 Israelis have been allegedly killed by Palestinians who gained citizenship and residency rights through marriage.

"The phenomenon has spun out control, with more then 100,000 Palestinians from Judea and Samaria (as Israelis call the West Bank) and Gaza obtaining Israeli identity cards since the 1993 Oslo (autonomy) accords," Mr Ezra said.

Arab MP Ahmad Tibi described the law as "inhuman", while leftist deputy Zeeva Galon has warned that the law will "deny the fundamental right of Arab Israelis to start families".

The new law, which applies only to Palestinians, will prevent the approval of any future or pending applications.

Certainly a surprising - and hardly commendable - action from a troubled country. Extremely sad.

[denisejo]

marriages are not prevented by the new law. What is prevented is terrorists gaining access to kill Israeli's by way of sham marriages. Israeli citizens marrying Palestinians can live together, but not in Israel.

I think it is a good law. The two peoples are at war. We don't give automatic residency in the same circumstances.

In fact, here in the US our laws are very strict for people attempting to gain a green card or residency by marrying an American citizen. Even though when we aren't in a declared war with the new spouse's country the people have to prove they actually have a legitimate marriage. You might be surprised just how hard our government has made it for a foreign spouse to move in with the American new spouse in the USA.

I think that rather than criticizing Israel for its law, we here in the USA should direct any complaints we have about similar laws in effect by our own government.

This whole bunch of nonsense criticizing Israel for trying to keep terrorists out of their country is being perpetrated by the same people who claimed Israel had killed thousands of Palestinian civilians in the Jenin Camp Battle.

As it turned out, the UN team investigated those claims and found that there had only been 52 Palestinians killed and of those, more than half were combatants.

The UN chose not to investigate the Palestinian Authority which was in violation of Geneva Conventions. An example of that is the fact that the Palestinian combatants made no effort to evacuate women and children before the battle. They knew when and where the IDF would be coming in and proof they had time is that they had time to plant land mines and booby traps. Some of their own children were killed by these even after the figthing was over.

Quite a lot of what is reported in our newspapers and around the internet is based on lies told by the Palestinians. Their lies about the Jenin battle is only one example. The same people who lied to the world about the number of dead were the same people the UN interviewed about other claims made against the IDF that were supposed to have happened during and after the battle.

[brian]

Hi denisejo - and welcome to the chronicles-network!

You are certainly right about the propaganda issue - but this works on both sides of the divide. That's part of the worst aspect of the conflict – that people like ourselves have to wade through the mire of propaganda to try and ascertain any degree of accuracy to description of events.

It seems that you have chosen a specific propagandist side to align with and I respect your right to that. Hopefully, however, we can avoid the "blame game" here – as that can only be a fruitless endeavour. And I know that because I've seen it played so many times before in debate communities.

If we keep the original article then certainly there would be a viable concern that some militant Palestinians are trying to gain legitimate entry into Israel by marriage. However, if the USA a similar law – that Americans who married "foreigners" must give up their right to live in the US – then would that law not be seen to be wrong, to be bigoted, and to be a form of racial discrimination?

The point is, the issue of security concerns here is being approached in a regrettable manner. Although to some degree understandable, it is also a potentially small-minded way of addressing the issue.

[denisejo]

Israili's who marry Palestinians are not forced to leave Israel any more than US citizens are forced to leave the USA if they marry a foreignor who can not pass INS scrutiny.

The foreign spouse here is not automatically given USA residence or a green card unless they can prove that they did not marry solely to get to stay in the USA.

What the law says in Israel is that Palestinians cannot gain residency by marrying an Israeli. Palestinians can marry Israeli's but they will have to wait for peace to live with the Israeli in Israel. I assume the Palestinian Authority would let the newly weds live in the lands the Palestinians call Palestine.

(Recently, Jordan showed a map, on their official web site, that all that Palestinian held land is within the borders of Jordon. What do you think of that?)

When we were at war with Japan, Americans who wanted to marry a citizen of Japan would have been in big trouble. There was no way their new spouse would have been allowed to live in the USA.

Israel is a small country. One terrorist can kill dozens of Israeli's at a time.

Why should we expect Israel to keep higher standards than we require of ourselves?

If an American has problems with strict immigration laws then I would say they should study our own immigration laws.

If they see a need for correction then they should work on that rather than sit in a peaceful environment and carp about Israeli's trying to protect themselves.

If you want to learn about immigration injustices, check with your local Hispanic community and hear the stories of their dealings with our INS.

Only one version of any news story comes from the Paletinian Authority.

In Israel these issues are debated in the streets, the Knesset, newspapers, on the radio, and on television. Normal people, like you and me, can discuss and argue about what should be done in public.

In "Palestine" questioning of the Palestinian/Israeli issues can get you lynched, if you disagree with the official stance.

There are lots of different views and positions available on the internet from Israeli's because they live in a democracy. There is no "one party line" like the Palestinian Authority imposes.

Check it out. You will find some interesting disagreements amongst Israeli's.

That marriage law will be changed over time just like laws in our country change over time.

Peace is the place to start and it will make that marriage law unnecessary.

[Foxbat]

Here in the UK, we have suffered decades of terrorism.
If the UK had applied the same laws against the Irish at the height of the troubles, the whole world (and specifically America) would have condemned us for doing so...and they would be right to do so.
We have finally learned that only dialogue will bring about peace. It's not there yet but we are closer now than we have ever been.
Israel and Palestine need to do the same but a law like this will only fuel resentment and anger. It is understandable that Israel wishes to defend itself. What I question is not that right, but the method.

[brian]

It's unhelpful to compare the war with Japan with the current situation in Palestine, as it implies that all Palestinians are therefore terrorists, or else directly associated with it.

Certainly - for the record I'm also in the UK, so I'm afraid it's difficult for myself to be immediately conversant with US immigration policy.

However, I'm certainly aware - and studied - something of the Irish question (1970's-1980's). In fact, it was the institution of policies, such as internment, that help lift off the IRA in the first place, from being a small group of idealists to a bigger and more structured organisation of bloodthirsty psychopaths.

Make no mistake - Hamas and friends are in the same league - but Israel isn't simply making the same mistakes as the British did in 1970's Northern Ireland - they have gone far beyond it. The use of helicopter gunships and tanks and bulldozers could never have been acceptable use of force if applied on the estates of Belfast – and they certainly have not stopped the suicide bombings and shooting of Israeli civilians. In fact, the continued forced impoverishment of Palistinians is more likely the greatest asset for recruitment to militancy that Hamas and Islamic Jihad could wish for.

What's strange to say is that Israel is actually in a far more empowered position than they realise. That's why it's so important that the US helps keep Israel from striking out in anger, and keep to the current roadmap. Now that Arafat is effectively out of the picture there's a political advantage in Palestine to take advantage of – and that was actually forced through external pressure.

A peace process is never an easy path to travel – we can see that over here with the Northern Ireland peace process still experiencing periodic hurdles. And certainly it's not the job of a peace process to apportion blame, vindicate murder, or else glorify violence.

But the Northern Ireland peace process is working – albeit slowly. We can see in Spain what the price of a failed peace process is – continued bloodshed.

We may all approach the entire Palestinian issue from different backgrounds, different ideals, and different perceptions. However, so long as we ourselves focus on the eventual goal of peace as being desirable, through political dialogue, then that in itself is the beginning of the end of the propaganda war. And once that war is won, there's nothing else left to justify conflict on the ground. A slow process that needs require patience, though.

[denisejo]

Arafat is not out of the picture. He has merely been replaced with a younger, healthier, better looking version of himself. Abbas was a founder of Hamas. He is pledged for the same goal as Arafat, to wipe Israel off of the map. Driving the Israeli's into the sea does not refer to a big, group swim; it means to kill every Jewish man, woman and child.

[brian]

Certainly Arafat is not out of the picture - but he has been sidelined politically.

Btw - Denisejo, do you have any evidence to back up your assertion that Abu Mazen is a founder of Hamas, pledged to wipe Israel off the map, and to kill ever Jewish man, woman, and child?

(I'd like to make it plain that I am not inviting links and pasted material from hate sites - on either side of the divie.)