Things we didn't have to know...

[DeannaBelle]

While I appreciate the detail in the ASOIAF series, there are some things I wish george did not feel he had to tell us. There are several, but three stick out my mind:

1. Biter and his nastiness, especially in Brienne's second-to-last chapter.

2. Dany - the intimate details of the fourteen-year-old's wedding night and her other sexcapades. Lolita was ... well, I am glad there was only book of its kind. However, at least I knew what Lolita was when I picked it up. When I purchase a book of this genre, I expect science fiction and fantasy... and that at least the more adult scenes (because apparantely, no author can write without them these days) will concern adult characters.

3. The northern woman (Lady Someone) who was locked in a tower and chewed her hand off after starvation. Ew!

[Boaz]

Lady Hornwood, iirc.

What? No mention of the Mountain and his men raping the innkeeper's daughter? No mention of the Jaime and Cersei's trysts? No mention of the filth that Rorge says to nine year old Arya?

Indeed, ASOAIF is not James and the Giant Peach nor Prince Caspian. There are lines to be drawn between children's books and adolescent books and adult books. Those lines may be fuzzy sometimes, but I think that the fantasy genre has progressed beyond it's roots in children's fairy tales and adolescent fantasies into adult literature. I don't mean adult literature as in pornography. I mean adult literature as in writing that appeals to and relates to grown-ups and the circumstances of their lives.

When an author depicts situations that adults are involved in, hear about, or must deal with the author makes choices on how the situation will be described. If the author revels in sex or violence for the simple sake of glorifying them, then the sex and violence is gratuitous. If the author depicts violence and sex in the direct context of the story, then said sex and violence is not gratuitous. This does not mean that you (nor even the author for that matter) like it or agree with it. I think that sex, violence, and other graphic situations may be included in a book or movie without being gratuitous.

I find Quentin Tarantino and Martin Scorsese (especially with The Departed) to have crossed over into the specific realm of gratuity for gratuity's sake. This had been almost exclusively the parameters for horror and sci-fi when I was a kid. Now everything from Lethal Weapon to the forthcoming Batman movie, The Dark Knight (so it seems from the previews), is all about gratuitous violence... gratiuitous sex seems to be inserted if time permits.

Don't get me wrong, the graphic nature of Biter's cannibalism, Dany's experiences, Gregor's rapine, and the incest in ASOIAF are shocking and difficult to read. But in no way do I feel that GRRM just threw them in because he gets off on cannibalism, sex with minors, rape, or incest. Nor do I get the feeling that he is including them to increase his sales. That's my opinion, anyway.

It seems to me that all of those horrible situations arise from his style of storytelling in ASOIAF. I read somewhere that ASOIAF is a medieval tale with fantasy elements in comparison to all other fantasy writers who try to fit some tiny bits of realism into their fantasies. Westeros is a gritty, soiled, pitiless place.

In Fevre Dream, GRRM writes a tale of Vampires on the Mississippi River just prior to and just after the American Civil War. Talk about a setting for gratuitous sex and violence! But Martin steers well clear of any gratuity. He builds his suspense like Henry James, Joseph Conrad, or Mark Twain... I kept waiting for each chapter to explode in carnage or carnality because they were hinted at... but nothing happened. The pent up frustrations thwarted vengeances, and broken promises finally culminated in the showdown in the final chapter... but that was not gratuitous... it was inevitable.

GRRM showed me in Fevre Dream that he can tell his stories in multiple styles. He could have been gratuitous in either story, but he has not in my mind. Gratuitous, no. Graphic, yes.

If it is the graphic nature that disturbs, we must remember that Martin is not writing in the same style as J.R.R. Tolkien. The Lord of the Rings tone (no joke intended) and levels of description hearken back to the themes and proprieties of the Victorian Age and the Enlightenment. Martin's style in Fevre Dream is along these lines, but ASOIAF is much more personal. His story involves the details of minute to minute life.

Did Aragorn tell the Council of Elrond how he tied up Gollum every time he had to urinate? Did Frodo openly lament the sexual frustrations of being a bachelor in The Shire? Did Theoden rage about his women being repeatedly raped to breed Saruman's half-orcs? No, no, and no. But those were real issues in the lives of those characters. Tolkien chose a style of storytelling that did not dwell on these menial details, but Martin has.

Would we hate the Mountain as much if we did not know how he and his men raped the innkeeper's daughter? Would we understand how Arya wasted one of Jaqen's kills on Chiswyck instead of Lord Tywin if Chiswyck had not told his tale? Would we truly despise Jaime and Cersei if they were not lovers? Would we feel revulsion in our stomachs and confusion in our hearts for the brutalities of war, the lawlessness of Civil War, and the constant injust foisted upon the innocent if Biter had not lived up to his name?

I think Lady Hornwood's chewing of her own hands, Dany's sex life, and other bothersome details will end up benefitting the later development of many characters... notably Ramsay Snow, Dany, Theon, Littlefinger, Arya, Jon, Sam, Jaime, Tyrion, Margaery...

Thanks for letting me spew forth... real op-ed writers for newspapers and magazines take a week or longer to research, write, and edit articles as long as this post. My apologies that you have to deal with my half an hour efforts.

[Charming Serpent]

...... I concur with Boaz. There! Take that long and detailed response!

[KiwiBird]

I have never been bothered by it, but then again i am not an american.
This may sound like a generalisation but you guys are prudes in many ways, alcohol after 21 or so, almost complete ban on nakedness, yet somehow you guys are allowed to drive at age 16 (wich to me is rather dangerous, especially since you guys i think ride mostly in automatics which do not allow for the same accuracy driving), and guns in households are normal. And i just realised i went completely offtopic. Oh well.

[TK-421]

Boaz for Class President!!!

I agree (except with your slander against a great film like The Departed).

However, some scenes were distrubing nonetheless, especially for someone who can be described, as Han Solo once said: "I can imagine alot." Somehow, GRRM still keeps them coming back for more. I would like to know how HBO will adapt such scenes.

[Wiggum]

Lol @ Kiwi. We hate breasts but we love guns.

It's these facets of Martin's writing, that for me, sets him apart.

But I agree with Boaz, there's a line between gratuitous and graphic which I don't think he crosses. Goodkind, on the other hand, would be an author that I would say does cross that line.

There's an undeniable grittiness to Martin's world, which is something that I personally embrace.

I can guarantee if Craster had just simply been a grumpy old man out in the woods, that scene would have never of had the impact on me that it did.

[thaddeus6th]

More boobs, less guns.

Also, GRRM goes a little bit too far for my liking. I think it's just the genre which seems to clash a little for me (I loved the goriest scenes of Metamorphoses, for example. Tereus, Procne and Philomela was one of my favourites, and that had rape, murder and incestuous cannibalism.)

That said, I still think ASOFAI is one of the best series I've ever read.

[Boaz]

Kiwi, in areas we are very liberal minded while in others we hold extremely conservative values. But in our collective consciousness, we think we hold them in balance, i.e. it makes sense to us, though it most likely confuses everyone else! Every culture in history has had morals, values, and methods that appear dichotomically opposed. For example, we glorify shows like Sex in the City and Desperate Housewives yet we recoil at electing a president who's been divorced. Also, it seems to me that the very indomitable independent spirit of the Polish people have pushed them time and again to reject foreign domination yet that spirit also that very love of independence keeps them from forming a strong government.

In his book, Peace Child, American missionary Don Richardson documented the lowland Sawi people of Papua New Guinea in the 1950's and 1960's. The Sawi were both headhunters and cannibals. The two great pillars of their culture were Treachery and the Peace Child. Their heroes were admired for their ability to betray someone, eat him, and then keep his skull as a trophy. On the other hand, the Sawi made peace with other villages and tribes by exchanging infant sons... Peace Children. Each person laid hands upon their newly adopted Peace Child and as long as the child lived, even up to old age, then the peace with their neighbors was binding and unbreakable. Ultimately the Peace Child concept wins out over the Treachery because the most heinous crime in their culture was to betray a Peace Child. It's a fascinating read.

Also, it's tough for us to know exactly what the mindset of the people of Westeros is. Are their values and expectations more similar to America in 2008 or England in 1469? I just started to read British historian Desmond Seward's The Wars of the Roses (published in the UK as The War of the Roses) and I'd like to share a quote from the opening pages. Seward quotes American historian Barbara Tuchman in A Distant Mirror...

People of the Middle Ages existed under mental, moral, and physical circumstances so different from our own as to constitute almost a foreign civilization. As a result, qualities of conduct that we recognize as familiar amid these alien surroundings are revealed as permanent in human nature.

Whoops, sorry, gotta run... I'll finish this post later.

[Wiggum]

Where in God's green earth are you going with that Boaz?

Lol, felt like I was back in college faiting my etudes in cultural history class.

Forgive my French spelling, I still can't write Freedom Frys without some sort of error.

But I do think you're making a broad generalization my Belgian friend. Deanna is making a statement that I've heard echoed on many occasions, and not just by Americans.

You'd be hard pressed to find a developed culture, or society, on Earth that wouldn't find the idea of pressganged marriage consumated while the female is of a tender age somewhat repugnant. Or the idea of patricide, rape, cannabalism midly, for lack of a better word, gross.

[DeannaBelle]

Of couse I agree with you, Boaz. However, I still could live without knowing...

No, I don't believe george is trying to rev up sales or anything. His books sell because they are awesome. Not because of cannibalism and underage sex.

I am just glad to live in the time and place where I live now... Where people have to be more accountable for their actions (note: I said more accountable, not completely accountable), a place where cannibalism and rape occur at leat less frequently.

And while the rape scenes are disturbing, they paint a picture of what went on. In the middle ages, no doubt the lords got away with all kinds of crap.

Lastly, the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" was off-limits for a reason. We cannot handle the knowledge of good and evil. In fact, we can't even agree on what is good or evil. I think that there says a great deal.

[DeannaBelle]

P.S. Did I mention that Biter disturbs me?

[viZion]

I've mentioned this somewhere before but the people in ASOIAF are considered to be an adult at a much younger age than in our society. Fifteen years old is a man grown. It's not terribly uncommon to find 16 year olds knights who are the veterans of a few battles already. I mentioned before that Barristan Selmy competed in his first tourney when he was 12. And women are considered to be grown when they have their first period. It's a different world with a much different culture. To judge it based on our culture's values is to be missing the point I think.

That said, I never found any of the sex and violence to gratuitous or unneccessary. Dany's scenes aren't about a young child having sex but rather about a powerful young woman starting to come into her own. It's part of her character development. Same goes for the story about Ser Gregor's rape. We know he's a bad guy before that but once we hear that story we truly know the depths of the darkness in his soul. It's shocking but it has to be because GRRM feels it's important for us to know this character and the world he lives in very well.

Edit: Now that I think about it, I think Barristan Selmy competed in his first tourney when he was 11 and The Hound killed his first man at age 12. I may have been mixing the ages. Anyway, they were young.

[Wiggum]

Just for modern day context, a thread I posted at another forum I moderate a little over a year ago:

Nothing like a good local news story - Movie Discussion Forum & Message Board

Nothing that Martin puts in his books can come close to what was front page news in my local paper.

[DeannaBelle]

Wiggum, wow. That was in your local paper? Wow. Um... I hope you've got burial arrangements elsewhere.

Wow.

I just can't believe it. I mean, one weirdo is something, but three? I mean, I would expect just one of the guys say, "Hey, you know what, guys? This is a bit weird. Maybe we should just go to a bar and meet a nice drunk chic."

[Wiggum]

Yes, but by local I mean The Wisconsin State Journal, which is circulated throughout the state.

A month later I posted an article about a Wisconsin resident that hit and killed a seven legged deer with his truck. After he had the DNR come look at and document it, he took it home.

His description of the deer was, "tasty".

My only point being that our everyday front page can be mutlitple times worse than the themes, events, or ideas that are put forth by Martin.