Things we didn't have to know...

[Qhorin Halfhand]

Originally Posted by Tansy

I've just finished AFfC and I did find the overuse of the C word a tad distasteful, especially when Arya, or should I say Cat uses it. I know it was to demonstrate the colourful wharf side vernacular but I just really hate that word

I can't remember Clan of the Cave Bear being that violent either

C word? As in the oppose to the D word? I don't get the stigma surrounding c**t when d**k is so prevalent in heaps of media.

[Tansy]

I've no idea what it is with that word, I just dislike it, there are times when it is fitting, but generally I tend not to use it

maybe it is just me, bad language doesn't normally bother me it's just that word

[Charming Serpent]

I live in Pittsburgh and all the girls around here flip if anyone uses that word. For some reason girls just truly truly despise that word.

[Call me Gytha]

I think that a lot of the sex scenes written in ASOIAF are gratuitous, for example although I read the series a couple of years back I remember the dilemma of realistic vs gratuitous and I recall a part containing Cersei and a female courtier and that settled the argument for me.... gratuitous and unneccessary

[the smiling weirwood]

Why is sex unnecessary? People talk about gratuitous sex but I don't see it as a problem unless the excess impedes the plotlines.

[viZion]

Originally Posted by Call me Gytha

I think that a lot of the sex scenes written in ASOIAF are gratuitous, for example although I read the series a couple of years back I remember the dilemma of realistic vs gratuitous and I recall a part containing Cersei and a female courtier and that settled the argument for me.... gratuitous and unneccessary

You're speaking of the scene with Cersei and Lady Taena Merryweather? That scene actually revealed quite a bit more about Cersei's character, motivations, and personality. It wasn't gratuitous at all if you look past the surface of the scene. Try reading it again and see if you change your mind. If not, then I guess we'll just have to disagree .

[Tansy]

I think there is a difference between gratuitous and not to your taste

I agree that it let us know more about Cersei and just how far she would go to get what she wants. She uses sex as a weapon to enthrall people and make them more biddable to her will. With that in mind I think GRRM has kept the sex scenes to the minimum he could in order to let us in on that side of her nature

[Qhorin Halfhand]

Originally Posted by Tansy

I think there is a difference between gratuitous and not to your taste

I agree that it let us know more about Cersei and just how far she would go to get what she wants. She uses sex as a weapon to enthrall people and make them more biddable to her will. With that in mind I think GRRM has kept the sex scenes to the minimum he could in order to let us in on that side of her nature

It also lets us know how she despises being of a sex that is viewed as culturally weaker, she considers herself strong and hates that being see her as weak just because she's a woman. When she has sex with Taena, its not for enjoyment but because she likes feeling powerful and male. I really liked what that scene revealed about Cersei and was perhaps the first time I really even remotely liked her as a character.

I guess I don't mind the sexual references and content in ASOIAF because (I HOPE THIS IS NOT TMI) I am quite open about sex; my friends and I talk about sex quite openly so I know how big a deal it can be for some people and why someone like Tyrion whose lived with physical inadequacy his entire life would view sex as so important, especially with whores who would always tell him what he wants to hear.

I find MOST of the sex in the series realistic, though some characters like [most of the Bloody Mummers] being so fixated on rape is pretty out there but I guess its just a way to highlight their brutality.

[Tansy]

I agree with you there Qhorin - it's just hard to type much covertly at work

I think if GRRM had not included any sex scenes the book would lose some of it's realism. As for the bloody mummers being fixated on rape - I don't see that rape as anything to do with sex. Rape is about power, humiliation, domination and control and very little to do with sex (that's just the means to the end).

Also the male dominated culture in which they live sees women as little more than possessions or prize dogs with no rights, sold off to whichever suitor has most to offer (alliance, wealth, political standing etc), rape was probably not seen as such a horrendous crime as it is in today's society. Women were just there to satisfy mens' needs and if it they weren't willing then so what? To common mercenaries like the mummers who live a brutal everyday existence (also hardly likely to rise high in their society) what better way to get their own back, and have what they feel they are entitled to, by taking with force that which they could never hope to get in normal circumstance, ie. raping some highborn, thoroughbred woman who wouldn't go near them in normal circumstances, or a lord's wife, daughter or pretty servant

I see it as an act of bitterness, they are the lowest of the low - looked down upon by everyone so they make themselves feel better by taking what they want from people weaker than themselves. No matter how bad or angry they feel they can always make some poor wench feel worse than they do and gain some measure of satisfaction and proof of their masculinity at the same time. It also adds to their brutal reputation and increases their infamy.

[Call me Gytha]

I get what you're all saying and as I said it was a few years ago I read the books. Personally though I don't think a lot of the graphic sex details are necessary for character insight, at least I don't recall feeling any more enlightened by the characters involved for reading the details of their trysts. Certainly I don't think the books would have lost anything by these scenes being alluded to rather than described and there is always the dialogue for character insight. Having said that though, I don't have a problem with such scenes being incorporated I just find myself skipping over them as I don't feel they add any substance. On another level I guess the books would have less balance if the violence was portrayed in great detail but the sex was glossed over.

[Mechaniik]

Yes, I think the scene with Cersei and Lad Merryweather was actually one of the most telling scenes in AFFC, especially in the comparison of Cersei to Robert, and how she is becoming to be manipulated by her courtiers just as much as Robert ever was (although there was one phrase, IIRC, that was a bit over the top).

[Tansy]

funny how a lot of the graphic politics details are included and not complained about and the violence - I guess writing a book like this you need to cover each aspect of life inteh right proportion

... I just think all can be important if detailed and treated right and if the balance is right, but obviously that is hard to judge for everyone and sex is a tricky subject. I think the telling thing with Cersei is that she thought she was much more clever and more in control of her thralls than she actually was, she thought the fact she was a women protected her in a way from people realising her manupulations (as they thought only men could do that so would not consider her a player to the level she thought she was), when in fact the smarter ones just thought she was mad and saw right through her, in the end thinking she could control people by sex backfired when the church got hold of her knight Kettleback and tortured the truth out of him. I did love the scene when she realised she was caught out and in the crap, a fantastic sense of justice came over me but I did kind of feel sorry for what is to come with her letting a religious army loose on the land expecting it to have some loyalty to her as its creator and then thinking oh crap it's gonna be my downfall, and I think these church knights are going to have a big impact

[YOSSARIAN]

I think the graphic language and descriptions in the books are a boon to Martin's talent as a writer. Martin is perceptive enough to know that some of the scenes in the book had a high potential to offend and disturb. He could've softened it up, but then the reader would not get a clear picture of the depravity of Clegane or the Mummers. We would lose the psychological insight into Cersei's nature (the scene with Taena was not sexy as much as it was a revelation of how warped Cersei had become and possibly how Robert had made her even worse than she was before their marriage.) History's most disturbing literature has always been the most effective:the torture of Winston Smith in 1984; the descent into violence, gore, and rape and the end of Catch 22; Raskolnikov bludgeoning the old lady in Crime and Punishment; the various crucifixion (sp?) scenes in the Gospels, etc. Tolkien tries to convince us Sauron is the penultimate EVIL, but never SHOWS us why-just saying he is EVIL don't mean squat. I ain't scared of no fiery eye who needs some silly magic ring to enslave the world. Satan is supposed to be frightening and EVIL, but all he does in the Bible is trick a gal into eating an apple, tempt Jesus to eat during an absurdly long fast, try to get a boil covered farmer to renounce Jehovah (who is the one actually torturing the guy), and cause some dudes in a couple cities to engage in copious buttsex. Sodomy and diseased flesh are generally unappealing, but not EVIL. As a contrast, the scores of graphic smiting incidents in the Bible are very effective in scaring the crap out Sunday School students (so effective that the fear of God's wrath remains in the minds of the faithful throughout life.) Hell, Hell ain't even scary in the Bible-it needed the vivid imagination of history's clergy to paint the picture and sear it into Christian brains. They've been very effective at that task. No indictment of religion here-just trying to drive home the point that explicit imagery is the only effective tool a storyteller has. Martin should be commended for having the artistic courage to show us the horror in his world. Anything less would be artistically irresponsible. By the way, Martin's ability to show us everything in vivid detail (not just the horrible stuff) is what makes him one the best writers of any genre.