Creatures in fantasy world

[Daniel Hetberg]

Originally Posted by pyan

Orcs is a word very heavily identified with its originator, JRRT, so if you use it, people will certainly call it plagiarism.

I don't think so. That word has at least de facto become public domain and cultural heritage (like the Amen drum loop, here).

[pyan]

Public domain or not, the point I was making that the knee-jerk reaction will be "Ah..another Tolkien imitator"...

[Hilarious Joke]

I don't know, Warcraft, and especially World of Warcraft, has popularised orcs massively.

[Culhwch]

Originally Posted by Peter Graham

So use elf and dwarf by all means, but try and make them into something other than Tolkien Standard elves and dwarves.

That's great terminology. TSE - Tolkien Stand Elf. TSD - Tolkien Standard Dwarf. TSO - Tolkien Standard Orc. And not to forget the TSP - Tolkien Standard Plot. That'll be very useful in the future denigration of crap knock-offs...

Threddy, I don't want to sound discouraging, but I'm not sure giving Orcs clothes is that big of a step away from the TSO. It reminds me of the episode of the Simpsons where Lisa designs a rival Malibu Stacy to much fanfare, and so the makers of Malibu Stacy stay up all night to reimagine her - and end up giving her a new hat. 'She's still the same Malibu Stacy!' exclaims Lisa, to which the horde of excited little girls (and Smithers) reply, 'But she's got a new hat!' My point - I think most fantasy readers would fall in with Lisa - they're still the same old orcs, even if they've now got a new cloak...

[Hilarious Joke]

I think, Culhwch, that he meant that the orcs were hidden by their cloaks, so they aren't described, for a while anyway. But I see your point and I agree with it.

On a similar note, I'm tired of good races and evil races. Orcs just seem like cannon fodder for heroes to plough through on their way to achieving their goal, most of the time. I'm sure people have done it, but I would like to read more about good orcs and such. That's just a random thought.

[Daniel Hetberg]

To be honest here, my story project features Humans, Elves, Orcs and Dwarves (deliberately). Concerning the "good Orcs", I don't see mine as particularly good, but let's say they have a very strong warrior ethos, which gives them a certain savage nobility. In the same vein, my elves are basically manipulative *bleep*s.

Someone doesn't have to be outright good to have admirable or at least positive properties, and I think that's the way to go when you want a more "grey" setting.

[Peter Graham]

Originally Posted by Hilarious Joke

I don't know, Warcraft, and especially World of Warcraft, has popularised orcs massively.

I know nothing about World of Warcraft, so you might be right. But it'd have to go some to be more popular than Tolkien. Tolkien's orcs have had fifty years, numerous reprints and a blockbuster film trilogy to get their iron shod feet firmly under the table.

Not only that, but the book is rarely out of the lists of the "Best Book Ever".

Not only that, but the serried ranks of 1970's and 1980's role playing games did much to cement the hegemony of the TSE, TSD and TSO (good one, Cul!) in their current format.

This is the whole point. Crime writers tend to avoid casting their heros as Victorian, pipe-smoking violin players with a penchant for deerstalkers and mild misogyny. And we can all see why!

Giving orcs cloaks or giving elves green hair (or whatever) is not going to be enough to avoid comparisons with JRRT. And unless you really are a better writer than him, those comparisons will be highly unfavourable at worst and lukewarm at best.

Writers need to go further - much further. Daniel's morally ambivalent orcs are a good example, but I'd still steer clear of using the word "orc", especially if your work is being written to appeal to a wider book-reading public who perhaps may not read much genre fantasy.

Regards,

Peter

[chrispenycate]

Originally Posted by Hilarious Joke

I'm tired of good races and evil races. Orcs just seem like cannon fodder for heroes to plough through on their way to achieving their goal, most of the time. I'm sure people have done it, but I would like to read more about good orcs and such. That's just a random thought.

So you think I should develop my: http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum...d-interval.htm
theme, do you? We could take on a few as crew for the Hellrunner…

[Threddy]

Tolkien took Orcs from old english and in particular the poem Beowulf (he said this when he was alive) - therefore I'd be stealing from an anonymous author.
I can see your point but I really don't see that it matters. The people who i know that like fantasy play WoW, so they therefore know all about orcs and what they look like from that, so it would be foolish to change the name, or keep them as orcs but change their characteristics as they would feel that i had done it wrong. Also, my orcs will have green skin, whereas in Tolkiens books, he never actually describes them as being green.
Ed - Threddy

[Peter Graham]

Hi Threddy,

Tolkien took Orcs from old english and in particular the poem Beowulf (he said this when he was alive) - therefore I'd be stealing from an anonymous author.

Fair point, but I still maintain that the word "orc" had been defunct for about 1,500 years by the time Tolkien resurrected it. To all intents and purposes, he made the word his own. He was, as I'm sure you know, a professor of all things Anglo-Saxon and therefore was one of the relatively few people who could ever claim to have read the word in its original context.

I can see your point but I really don't see that it matters. The people who i know that like fantasy play WoW, so they therefore know all about orcs and what they look like from that, so it would be foolish to change the name, or keep them as orcs but change their characteristics as they would feel that i had done it wrong. Also, my orcs will have green skin, whereas in Tolkiens books, he never actually describes them as being green.

Again, you make a very fair point - I'm really not criticising you here. You're right - it may not matter one jot, provided that you are happy to write specifically for a genre audience who like their fantasy a certain way. But fantasy can touch a wider audience - JK Rowling and Terry Pratchett are both proof of that - and if you have aspirations to write a big-selling fantasy blockbuster, you need to tread your own path.

I'm probably wrong, but I think that the whole green skin thing came in off the back of RPG's like Warhammer. Orcs became slightly more comical in some ways, but ultimately it was Tolkien Standard with a paint job.

Regards,

Peter

[Hilarious Joke]

Well Chris, you are the captain so its your call; but let me say this, if you do hire some orcs, make sure they are well fed! It would probably be useful to have a crew of more than two and a bit.