Creatures in fantasy world

[The Pelagic Argosy]

Originally Posted by power to the J

In WoT, Trollocs are pretty much equivalent to orcs (come in packs, killed easily) but since they are described differently and are called something else they stand out.

Originally Posted by Daniel Hetberg

...but to be honest I'd happily apply the "smeerp" rule to elves as well. If you want elves, don't call them something else just to be different. However, I do agree with the blood/high/wood whatever elves, these are fairly specific, as opposed to just "elves" with is quite generic and could be anything. Don't just copy and paste them.

I agree with Daniel. I say, if you have a race of haughty, beautiful, graceful, cultured, long-lived humanoids (especially if they come in wood, night, and blood varieties, and especially if they have pointy ears) in your fantasy story, they should be called elves. If you have a race of ugly, stupid, warlike humanoid grunts (especially if they do the bidding of a dark lord), they should be called orcs.

Jordan's Trollocs, or Troll-orcs, are the case in point. Their role is easily recognizable. They are orcs with minor cosmetic changes. They don't have to be explained.

If you're including, say, wood elves in your story because you like wood elves as they are commonly understood in fantasy literature, then go ahead and use them, and call them what they are. Don't make minor changes for the sake of "originality," because it's not actually very original, and readers will see through it. Focus your creative efforts on other elements. The benefit of using "prefab" races is that you don't have to explain much to readers. The drawback is that you will lose readers who are sick to death of elves and orcs.

I say you have to completely re-imagine a race and make drastic changes, or invent one from the ground up, to get to make up a new name for them.

[Threddy]

Thank you loads The Pelagic Argosy(can't see your name, so I hope this is right)
This has really cleared up my thoughts. It's like you've gone in my head and organised me neatly. (I've just realised how weird this sounds but mweh...)
Ed - Threddy

[DarrellR]

Originally Posted by Manarion

Like me, kind of. I have a strange race I call Akuntas that are an alchemic mix of wolf, human, elf, troll, and wraith. Rather nasty creatures, actually....

That is bringing some of the strangest images to my mind...Heh if you have an illustration that would be interesting to see.

As for the OP I agree with the idea that has been the general consesus on this thread to stray away from these common pieces of fantasy. But at the same time you have to write what you enjoy otherwise you will have difficulties progressing. So if its in your mind then I would say write out and see how you like/dislike it. Get some friends that you trust familiar with the genre to give their opinions. Just make certain if you have this idea mapped in your mind and must use elves, orcs, etc., give them your own personal spin. Make them yours and no one else's. I have read novels with such races and though I have grown weary of reading of them the author portrayed them in a manner that made me appreciate the book when I expected myself not to. Sometimes it's all about how you weave your tale.

[Lith]

It's easy to get confused when you get different advice from different people. There's no consensus, really; just make your characters yours. If it's only a name change, your readers will see through it- just as I snorted when I first read the word "Trolloc" in WOT. On the other hand, if you change your race just a little, you can use the regular word- look at JKR's house elves. And as you write, your races will pick up unique characteristics almost automatically. Just give yourself enough room for your imagination to roam while you're writing.

[Hilarious Joke]

Maybe Threddy it would be worth posting longer descriptions of these races as they are in your story on here. I personally would love to read about them, and I'm sure you'd get some excellent constructive feedback on what seems unoriginal and what seems intriguing or well-developed.

[pyan]

Originally Posted by Daniel Hetberg

It's an achievement to get something on that scale written and published, but I doubt it will be remembered as a big masterpiece in ten years. Bit like Edding's Belagriad saga maybe, many people have bought and read it, but it's not actually good or innovative. Hm, don't know if these comments justify the flame proof suit... probably not.

I think you can leave the suit in the cupboard, Daniel.
And he was really lucky to find publishers...and even luckier be able to call them Mum and Dad......

Back to the point.
I must confess I have a certain amount of sympathy with your position though, Threddy...it's easy to say "Don't use Elves and Orcs" but I imagine it's quite hard to find alternatives.

[Hilarious Joke]

I'd like to think though, that if you can have a massive complex variety of stories about humans, you can have a massive complex variety of stories about elves and orcs. I like to think that, I'm not sure how true it is. Maybe you can't attribute the same cultural depth and detail to made up races.

[Culhwch]

I'm not sure anyone was flat-out saying, 'Don't use elves or dwarves!' I know I certainly wasn't. The key is, as someone said, to put your own spin on them. Don't use Paolini's elves. Don't use Fiest's elves. Don't use Tolkien's elves. Use Threddy's elves. They may superficially resemble the others, but make them your own.

[Hilarious Joke]

I reckon Feist's elves are extremely similar to Tolkien's elves. In fact, that annoys me in Feist's books. I like them in spite of the elves rather than because of it. Just a random opinion.

[Daniel Hetberg]

Originally Posted by pyan

And he was really lucky to find publishers...and even luckier be able to call them Mum and Dad......

Well, he did get published properly after the self-published edition.

Back to the topic:
It's quite interesting (if confusing for the OP) to have so many differing opinions. I have to say, trolls and orcs and elves are such staples of fantasy for me, I almost (almost!) expect them to occur in fantasy books. Tolkien's work was so genre-defining that most attempts to break the mold were exactly that, and easily discerned as such.

If you include non-human races, the obvious options are to make them more or less than humans... aka, elves and orcs. At that point, apply the smeerp rule: Does it add to your book in any way, if you call superhumans something else than elves, and subhumans something else than orcs and then have to explain them? Do their noodly appendages really play a role, or is it exoticism along the lines of the races in Lucas' Star Wars?

Although there are some original "alternative fantasy" books around, I have yet to see one that really engaged me, and that couldn't have gotten the the same job done with "standard fantasy" races.

[Threddy]

Thanks all of you.
One of you asked for my description of them but I haven't written them in yet, and the elves don't come in until the second book anyway.
A bit of originality which I decided before this thread was that my Orcs wear cloaks to cover themselves up until they go into battle.
Thanks again for all the advice.
Ed - Threddy

[Peter Graham]

I'm with TPA on this one. I think the problem is less the use of the labels and more how the creatures themselves appear.

Tolkien didn't invent elves or dwarves, but he did invent his elves and dwarves. The problem is that his elves and dwarves now crop up everywhere - elves as pointy-eared, crack shot, harp playing beauties who live in the woods and flit about like Dark Age environmentalists and dwarves as stumpy, stubborn, insular, bearded miners with big axes and a dubious fixation with shining metals.

So use elf and dwarf by all means, but try and make them into something other than Tolkien Standard elves and dwarves. A dwarf was originally a huge, evil giant of Norse mythology and, as I recall, Elves started life as flighty, capricious little tricksters from the less salubrious parts of Faerie.

However, I'd definitiely avoid using orcs. "Orc" is specifically a Tolkienism (albeit one he borrowed from a real but defunct Norse word) for what folklore usually recognises as a goblin (he uses orc and goblin as synonyms). So, if you have a race of thicko grunts bent on evil and torture, call 'em goblins, or hobgoblins.

And, of course, hobbits are a no-no!

Regards,

Peter

[pyan]

Originally Posted by Peter Graham

So use elf ...... by all means, but try and make them into something other than Tolkien Standard elves ....

Which is what Terry Pratchett does, in Lords and Ladies. In fact, he has quite a bit of fun with his other characters applying the Tolkien-view of elves to creatures that share the same name, but definitely not their characteristics.

[Threddy]

I agree that hobbits is out of the question, but I don't want hobbits anyway.
The thing is with elves, orcs and dwarves as they've got themselves into the definition of fantasy pretty much.
i think though, what i'll do is use orcs and elves but think of some changes to make, like my orcs with their cloaks, my elves have four varietys tolkien i think only had two.
Thanks,
Ed - Threddy

[pyan]

Three, actually - High, Grey and Wood, but that's being pedantic.

I'd agree with PG, though - Orcs is a word very heavily identified with its originator, JRRT, so if you use it, people will certainly call it plagiarism.