Why say Tyrion's a Targ?

[Boaz]

Cersei did indeed do her utmost to get Jaime to the Kingsguard. Jaime always thought it was so that they could be together... maybe that's true. But Aerys quickly saw it as a chance to deprive Tywin of his prized heir... this is the real reason why Tywin stepped down as Hand. Mayhaps Aerys also saw it as a chance to put his own son, Tyrion, in control of House Lannister... i.e. breeding out the real Lannister bloodline.

Now as to Cersei's motivations, at the time of Jaime's appointment, Rhaegar was married to Elia while Cersei was unmarried. What if Cersei got Jaime into the Kingsguard so that she could inherit Casterly Rock?

Think about this.

Joanna was dead. Tywin was not remarrying.

Of Tywin's three children, Jaime would have been disallowed from inheriting as a Kingsguard. Cersei would have married some great lord, but maybe she'd get out of it... or get her sons to inherit from her and her husband. And finally, Cersei knew when Tyrion was born that Tywin loathed him. At nine years of age, would she have openly abused Trion if she was not sure that Tywin, whom she and everyone feared, hated him also? Cersei knew by age eighteen what Tyrion did not know by twenty-four... Tywin was never, never, never going to let Tyrion inherit.

The only problem with Cersei arranging her inheritance of Jaime's birthright is that it means that Cersei was planning years, maybe decades down the road. In none of her chapters in AFFC has she shown any propensity for plotting beyond the moment.

One quick question for viZion and DeannaBelle... Do you guys know each other? You both are from Oregon. You both joined last month. I think you two may be some part of a conspiracy.

[viZion]

Originally Posted by Boaz

One quick question for viZion and DeannaBelle... Do you guys know each other? You both are from Oregon. You both joined last month. I think you two may be some part of a conspiracy.

Heh, I also thought it was interesting coincidence. But no, we don't know each other.

As to the rest of your post, I think the key to that whole thing is your observation that in order for all of that to happen Cersei had to be planning years in the future. That's just not her thing. She's a pretty terrible leader.

[devilsgrin]

she may be a terrible leader, but she was always cunning... thats a Lann the Quick trait which all Lannister's seem to have.
It was only once she became Queen Regent that she became stupid... and that can be blamed on power going to her head.
Whatever we may say about Cercei, one thing she is not is Stupid. Occasional lapses in higher brain functions caused by excessive alcohol consumption, certainly. Blind with power, yes. Mad, increasingly so. Surprisingly naive, even. But out-right stupid - she may do some stupid things, but being blinded my power and going somewhat batty are certainly factors in these instances.
I don't find it at all hard to believe that she was basically getting Jaime out of the way by having him knighted to the Kingsguard.

[viZion]

Originally Posted by devilsgrin

I don't find it at all hard to believe that she was basically getting Jaime out of the way by having him knighted to the Kingsguard.

I do. I really think Cersei and Jaime were trying to get together when Cersei had Jaime put on the King's guard. The plan simply backfired when Lord Tywin decided to take off over it. I don't remember anything in Cersei's POVs that indicate she was trying to get rid of Jaime back then. GRRM is pretty good at not hiding his character's thoughts and feelings over their past actions when they are the POV. If she were trying to get rid of Jaime back then then you'd think it would have come up somewhere in her POVs. For example, when she decides to get rid of Jaime in AFFC she could have said to herself, "I need to get rid of Jaime again like I did when I put him on the Kingsguard." Instead these are her exact thoughts from the book:

Originally Posted by Pg. 356, US hardcover

I need to rid myself of him, and soon. Once upon a time she had dreamt that the two of them might rule the Seven Kingdoms side by side, but Jaime had become more hindrance than a help.

That quote alone seems to suggest that she wanted them to be together. She's only now thinking to get rid of him since he's stopped allowing himself to be controlled by her.

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by viZion

GRRM is pretty good at not hiding his character's thoughts and feelings over their past actions when they are the POV.

This is why Eddard had to die. Martin could not go on with Eddard's POVs and not spill the beans on Lyanna, Jon, Rhaegar, Aegon, Benjen, and maybe more. This is the reason we don't get Aemon, Littlefinger, and Varys POVs... they know too much.

[Young stormlord]

Originally Posted by Tysha

"Tyrion's becoming a kinslayer would only be helping him to catch up with Jaime... who slew his own father, Aerys."
GOOD ONE BOAZ!
Aerys wanted Jaime on his Kingsguard.. to keep him close... hmm
And there was this Harrenhal incident - where Aerys is sending Jaime back to Kings Landing.. I didn't quite undersood what happened. Maybe it's somehow related to our crazy theory

Harrenhall tournament was the greatest tournament ever. Winner of the tournament will be remembered for eternity, (as Rhaegar is) and Aerys did not want for that to happen. Citation "You will not gain glory here. I am the king!"

[DeannaBelle]

Boaz, of course that's what Cersei was thinking. It would never have happened, but she would have refused to believe that. She had a bit f a twisted "love" for Jaime. SHe only felt "complete" with him because she believes him to be her with a third leg.

[DeannaBelle]

Oh, yes Boa, I actually am ViZion.

ViZion is my brighter side under whose screen name I post my brighter comments.

[DeannaBelle]

Actually, if ViZion is the business man I at Powells who recommended the series to me while on his lunch break, then "thank you!"

[Raul]

Those ideas (not even theories) about Cersei and Jaime being Targs - it was a joke, what I didn't understand, right? I personally strongly believe that Jaime's dream (that one, what he had after he left Harrenhal and before he went back for Brienne) shows clearly that he is Lannister, (meeting his ancestors and all). Tyrion=Targ in the other hand - it was good, it was brilliant! Boaz found so many waterproof evidences, so it became one of my favorite theories.
So, to me TOP 3 theories are:
1. R+L=J (author unknown?)
2. Tyrion=Targ (author not Boaz?)
3. Tysha is a Whore in Braavos (author must be Tysha, so I salute you, Tysha!)

[Boaz]

I just had a thought regarding Azor Ahai. Supposedly he was the legendary warrior to defeat the Others last time around, right? Well do you think his name is just a name or do you think it might have a significant meaning if translated into Westerosi? I dunno.

But his first and last names both begin with the letter A. If he is to reappear, will he have a name that translates as Azor Ahai? Will this new Azor Ahai's name have the same letters beginning his/her first and last names?

If so, then Jon Snow/Stark and Stannis Baratheon are out. I'm not an expert on vocal sounds, but the letter T is only a soft D... this might put Daenerys Targaryen into the running for Azor Ahai... we'd just need to see that the original name was Taenerys (much like Taena) but that it was hardened to fit in with Westerosi pronounciation.

Brandon Stark, Samwell Tarly and Aegon Targaryen do not work either.

Tyrion Lannister does not work. But if Tyrion was a Targaryen, then I confess that Tyrion Targaryen does work. Mayhaps TT=AA reborn.

[DeannaBelle]

So, Azor Ahai reborn must have an alliteration in his/her name? NUTS! go fish out anoter one. (However, playing by your suggestion, "Daenerys Targaryen" is almost an alliteration, if youconsider that a "d" is just a voiced "t")

I do wish GRRM had included more High Valyrian and other language vocabularies in the series. Interesting was the translation into Bulgarian (???) for the character Orell, aka "Orell the Eagle," which sunds like the Bulgarian word for "eagle," orel. I read that today, but GRRM said it was a coincidence. I wish it had been purposeful. That would make the characters' names more fun. I suppose we've got sigils for that sot of thing though.

Tyrion is great for his name (and his own brand of "charm"), reminding us of a little tyrant. Like Auntie Frey suggests, he's the next Lord Tywin. Also, the Starks were traditionlly very stark. Other than that, I'm not sure important the meanings & connotations of names are in this series, except maybe with reference to other characters (eg. Bran aspring to be the other Brans in his Stark heritage).

I do not believe Tyrion is a Targ, but that's an interesting theory about him being AAreborn. He likes the wall; he's a bitter little man, having beenscrewed over so many times; we now see him eager to outright use people against their desire (his chapter from aDwD) to feel powerful....

No, not enough solid food there. I think that's a dead train of thoght, too.

[viZion]

I think one of the ways GRRM tries to separate himself from the Lord of the Rings is by not including a ton of foreign language in the series. I think he wanted the focus to remain firmly on the storytelling and not risk the chance of the series becoming a study of some other language. Let's face it, there are some people around whose favorite part of Lord of the Rings is learning how to speak Elvish. Maybe GRRM didn't want that. Or maybe he just wanted to keep us in the dark and guessing about the meaning of certain words .

[Tysha]

Well, there are lots of hints about Tyrion being a Targaryen bastard.
So, Aerys raped (or maybe it was not a rape) Joanna. A man like Tywin would never suffer such an insult as a living bastard Targaryen child that soiled his marriage and killed his wife. So why Tyrion is alive? Tywin hated him, abused him, humiliated him and disinherit him. So do we have another dying wish, that goes like this: "Promise me.. Promise me ... Tywin..."
Just a thought.

[Lubbock]

hehe i like the theory that Jaime abd Cersei are actually the Bastards

For this to be possible it would have to mean that Tywin was not aware of this fact due to him not letting them be around if they werent his.
So some late night, Tywin is out doing his business running the realm as Das Hand Aerys in some ways jealous and the fact he is a nutter takes Joanna into his bed, she becomes pregnant. To avoid Tywin going on a rampage she tells it they are his, he loves his mighty Son and his Prizecow to trade <also known as Jaime and Cersei>. Tywin only finds out the truth about these two when Joanna dies giving birth to the son of his own loins Tyrion.
So now Tywin is in a pickle, he can disown the two children he has someone grown "fond" off and let the dwarf take over, so now he in trouble. Jaime cant inherit due to him being in the KIngsguard and he wont give any legitimate heirs. Cersei cant inherite as she is a women and to be married off.
hmmmmm i written myself into a corner.
So his best choice on this day is to make sure Kevan Lannister takes over
Bah written sop much i refuse to remove it
The mad rantings of a Dane