Thoughts(Farseer Spoilers)

[Jigoku Neko]

i thought the end of Farseer trilogy was really sad and depressing but not that bad. mostly because the romance between Fitz and Molly was a teenage romance, very hot but i had assumed it would burn out quick. i think the saddest part of the story was that in the Tawny man the writer shows us that it was *not* in fact the case. that it was really love (at least on Fitz's part; i think Molly never really loved him as much as he did her.)

my favorite part of the general story remains the Liveship trilogy, completely different in approach and focus than either Fitz trilogies. there's a lot of characters and storylines for one thing that actually come to a satisfying conclusion in the end and it's not first-person-narrative either, which tends to be a little tiring at times though Hobb handles it masterfully well. so i would not recommend skipping it entirely.

[kauldron26]

i believe molly loved him as much as he loved her, because even Burrich admitted as he was dying that he knew she never stopped loving him in 15 years. remember that she "knew" she loved him first! she thought he was courting her when they were 16. she stayed at court humbling herself and enduring humiliations just to be with fitz. after the first night they made love she said "know that regardless of what the king says, i am your wife now and forever".

being fitz story is 1st person POV we cant get that much of an insight on other characters.

[the_faery_queen]

she was older. molly is more likely to know how she feels, being older
and i agree, i don't think she loved him as much. she married burrich, for heaven's sake. she had lots of kids. fitz didn't move onto anyone else. he used women for sexual release (a sign to me that his feelings for molly weren't that pure as well, otherwise he might have saved himself jsut for her, but that's my idea of deep romantic love) but he certainly didn't form a relationship with anyone. she did. evebn thinking he had died, she married again. patinece never married again after chivilary died. ok she didn't have a child to look after, but burrich would have stayed by molly without marrying her and having lots of babies. but she married him because her feelings for fitz weren't as strong as patience feelings for chivilary. or even ketrrickens for verity. she didn't marry again either. and what she said in the farseer series was a child talking. well a young woman, full of love and sillyiness. you can't hold what she says there to fitz as a standard for how she felt. only what she did, and what she did was move on, marry someone else. her feelings just weren't as strong.

[Jigoku Neko]

that's right. although it was normal for Molly to find another man--thinking as she did that Fitz was dead and gone--she turned to her caretaker in too short a time period in my opinion. pregnant women need several months before losing the mood swings and blues that come with childbirth, nevermind having the time to feel sexy. comparing her feelings to those of the Fool, who never stopped loving Fitz in his/her way she comes up short. (just look at what the Fool endured for Fitz fer cryin out loud--a regular customer for torture!--and his/her final act of love in the Tawny man was imo the hardest sacrifice)
i don't mean Molly didn't have any feelings, only that they were not fairytale material. and actually that's Hobb's greatest achievement, bringing life-like people and flawed emotions in a fairytale setting.

[the_faery_queen]

kettricken lost verity when she was pregnant, just as molly left fitz when she was, and kettricken didn't remarry, even with all her hormones. ok she was in a different situation, she was queen, she probably didn't think that she could. but even when dutiful was older she was still single. and patience didn't remarry either. so yeah, molly just not as in love, i think. maybe she was just more needy, in the end. maybe that's why she went back to fitz? because she didn't want to be on her own, with all the kids. so it's not just love, but a level of need.

and yeah, the fool sarcrificed far more. he gave up his home, his life, to be with fitz (well teh catylst originally i guess) and he left, at the end, knowing it was for the best, despite how he felt abotu it. i don't see that same level of sacrifice in molly. what she did was a betryal, to some extent. going off with fitz's dad, to all intensive purposes. the man who had raised him. she went with the first person who was nearby, really. the first one who could look after her. just as she went with fitz, the first person who really showed an interset in her. think after her life, of being abused and having to work hard for her dad, she needed someone to take care of her and i think that drove her motives.

[Overread]

Just some thoughts here: - names forgotten because my books are in another county
Kettricken - she did try to remarry after her loss, however the only man that she felt close to was Fitz, who was not prepard to go marry her because of her staition, his duty to the crown and to her fromer husband. She also sought no man from the court because they were so different to her. Through the books you get the impression that Kettricken rules and rule well partially because she is separate from the locals - she is an outsider.

Patience - a differnet kettle of fish here, in part she knew that her husband was "removed" from life and thus was probably scared to try again. Further she had the support in her life from her aid thus was not under the same pressures as other charcters to seek for emotional support.

Molly - well to her Fitz was dead (murdered as far as she was concerned) and she and Burrich were on the run from Regal. Thus they were pressed together for some time both emotionally and physicaly. Remember also that when B decided to marry Molly, asfar as he was aware, Fitz was also dead - so to them there was no hinderance, just the practicality of continuing life.
I will agree that I think Molly was looking for support from a significant other, whilst the same can also be said of B - thus they found each other.

[the_faery_queen]

i dunno.
i mean, fitz was removed from molly's life. he was bunked off, so she thought, for whatever reason. yet she was happy to try again with teh first guy who came around. while patience didn't. also, fitz and kettricken were pushed together, on the run. fitz never gave into be with her, while burrich DID give in to be with molly. although molly did instigate all of that. to me that shows she's not as strong as kettricken or patience, because she turned, again, to the first man around, didn't try and stay on her own, even for a few years. didn't love fitz enough to not be with someone else. burrich would have stayed with her, raised the kid, without marrying her. just as he had raised fitz. but molly made the move, molly had the need.

so yeah. molly, doesn't love fitz as much as she needed to be with someone.

[Overread]

It seems you are being rather harsh on molly. Some people have it in them to move on from loss, others don't. Kettrecken tries to move on, but her station and different culture hinder her attempts - she could not just select any man she wanted, remember her first marrage was an arranged one, Fitz was her choice and one of the few people she felt that she could choose of her own right, whilst being able to make it appear a decent choice for a queen - the reality of this is not pursued in the books, because Fitz rejects her advances. Also her attractions are not just on the run - remember the incident in the castle when Ket tries to introduce her wit skill to Fitz? At that stage I think Fitz was too young for it to be true love, but there was attraction which Ket did not lose for Fitz as he got older
Molly and Burrich - I think both were looking for the same confort - both had just had thier lives upturned with major events, both had lost someone they held very dear - one a child the other a lover. Thus both I think were wanting to a certian degree. Also remember that Burrich has lost Vixen by this stage as well and has not taken another companion, thus he has lost an emotional crutch from his life

[the_faery_queen]

im not being harsh on molly. im just saying that i don't think she loved fitz as much as he loved her, and i think it was need that drove her. he sacrified for molly, and remained true (ish) to the one he loved. molly didn't. she didn't stay celibite, as patience did. and while kettricken may have found it hard to find other people of her station, molly would have found it hard to find someone willing to take on her, and another man's child. but rather than be alone, the way kettricken chose to be, because she couldn't have who she wanted. molly settled for the first guy that came along. and that's because, in my mind, need drove her more than love. and i think molly is more to blame be4cause burrich wouldn't have made a move on her. nothing would have happned unless she instigated it. im not saying i blame her. im not saying it was a bad thing that she found someone else, im just syaing she didn't love fitz as much as he did her. but she NEEDED him. and she needed burrich. i think need drives her and clouds her feelings. kettirkcne had also lost, remember. her husband, her brother (years before granted) and the first child she was pregnant with, and fitz had lost too. molly! and burrich, and his home and his life, what it had been. yet they didn't take that need, or their loss, otu on each other. but molly and burrich did, because molly needed a person with her far more than kettricken, fitz or patience did and i think burrich agreed because he thought it was the best way to look after her, or because he sensed that need. i think they had feelings for each other, but they were born out of need, and that's what i think drives molly all the way through. not love for loves sake. but love out of need for not being alone.

[Overread]

hmm true points there - I do remember now (its been a while since I read the books) that in the early stages of thier meeting Molly was rather dominating over Fitz with her needs; I feel that this is partly caused by her upbrigging - she had no time in her mind for romance for romances sake, there had to be more to get from a relationship than love. However in many ways this, to me, makes her character more real and not just another fantasy lover.

Personally I think that Fitz and Ket would have been the best couple in the book - so similar in more ways to each other than they were to many of those around them.

[kauldron26]

Fitz couldnt move on to anyone else, there is a whole section in the beginning about how he doesnt believe he could love anyone else after molly because he would forever compare the woman to her and it wasnt right. Fitz didnt not have sex with starling even after her several advances in AQ because he loved molly. it wasnt until he knew he had lost her forever that he gave into that. Didnt he even tell starling that every time he was with her he thought of Molly? wasnt that the most hurtful thing he said to her when they hated each other? Molly had to marry Burrich as much as a i hate to say it, remember how customs were then? if he didnt marry her the child would be forever seen as a bastard, and would never have been more than that. if she didnt marry him they would have still been a suspicious group further calling attention to themselves from regal. Kettricken and Patience were nobles they had wealth and property to fall back on. Molly was on the run for her life and had nothing. perception of life then is vastly different from today. how could she support herself and needs on her own with a baby and with her life constantly in danger? in the end i wont deny that it was betrayal to the nth degree, but im not sure there was ever much of a choice.

[the_faery_queen]

he was lying when he said that to starling, just to hurt her. he also said that. and i don't think that molly or burrich married jsut to avoid suspicion or the stigma of being a bastard. and she had burrich to support her. that was the point. he was there, he looked after her. they weren't married when she gave birth, the kid was already a bastard and anyone local would hav eknown that. they married after. and burrich was already there. she married him because she wanted to, becauise she needed to. not because oif anything else. her feelings just weren't that strong for fitz in my opinion. sorry.

and yeah, i think fitz and kettricken made a much better couple. she was smart, strong, independant, had the wit, has some position, was a fighter, knew herbs, was an assassin almost (when she posioned fitz when they first met) and molly was just a girl who liked making candles. she was so domestic and dull. and ok, that's what fitz wanted, a life, a home, but personality wise, he was suited to kettricken better. it was her position, her love of verity, that i think clouded his judgment to that, because he wanted something private and seperate from his life and his duity and she wouldn't have been that. molly was. molly was a break. but kettricken was definitly better suited.

[kauldron26]

i wont and cant deny kettricken was a damn near perfect fit for fitz. Molly didnt know about the wit, she didnt even know fitz had it till he died tho. somewhere deep down i would have loved to see fitz with kettricken. didnt she kiss him at some point? faerie queen you cant deny that not all relationships are perfect, and more importantly because people are perfect for each other doesnt mean they can be together. can we agree on that? lol. im trying to make a truce lets reach even ground. lol

[the_faery_queen]

im not saying they can't be together. i think they offered each other what they both needed, im just saying it wasn't a deep, perffect, sacrificing love. and that he would have been better off with someone else. not that they shouldn't have or enjoy what they had, just that molly wasn't right for him.

[kauldron26]

your very right in that faery queen, and i agree with you that molly wasnt right for fitz. he wasnt right for her either. Burrich's last words were about him being the better man. he was. fitz and molly's love was sure as hell not perfect, they were not even remotely good or fitting for each other. yet my focus and interest is the fact that they loved each other so much regardless. however i disagree that their love was not deep and sacrificing. most of all it was all sacrifice. the love itself was based on sacrifice. he literally sacrificed he soul and happiness so she could find happiness with burrich. yet she still loved him during those 15 years.

she stayed with him and loved him at the keep knowing that he placed his duty over her, she stayed with him and loved him knowing that they could not be together. she stayed with him and loved him when the keep considered her the bastards whore, and even under threat and act of violence and poverty.

maybe im getting to deep. maybe its all in my head. maybe im over analyzing. but analysis is what i do. mybad lol.