Non-paying anthologies?

[Susannah]

Hi, all:

I'm new to these boards, so please excuse me if I'm bringing up a question that's already been addressed to death elsewhere. I'm also American, so I realize there may be differences between British and American SF-publishing standards, practices, or even general assumptions, with which I'm not familiar. That's why I've come here to respectfully ask a question, to which I hope you can give me some responses and perspective.

I recently saw a call for submissions, on ralan.com, that led me to the submissions page for Elastic Press's upcoming anthology "Subtle Edens - The Elastic Book of Slipstream" (I'm afraid I'm not allowed to post URLs, but the link is easy to find). I read the guidelines with interest, found the concept intriguing, and found myself coming up with ideas for a story I thought I'd like to write and submit.

What puzzled me when I came to it, though, was this text:

"You will be paid for your work in copy / copies of the book. Elastic Press receives no Lottery or Arts Council funding and is completely independent from any multinational media organisations. We survive because discerning readers buy our books. Thank you."

I found myself confused by this. The reason is that the general wisdom, what I've understood from classes, peer workshops, and professionals in the field, is that some form of compensation is normally expected for work accepted for publication. I understand that not everyone is in a position to pay professional rates, but aren't semi-pro rates, or at least a percentage of royalties, the standard for for contributors to published books that will be sold to the public at standard prices?

I'd like to add that it occurred to me that I might not understand the publishing context in question, so I looked up Elastic Press and read what I could find about it online. I had not heard of Elastic Press before -- again, not surprising, since I'm American and most of us haven't heard of small presses outside our home countries -- but was certainly impressed to learn that two of its recent anthologies, _The Alsiso Project_ and _Extended Play: The Elastic Book of Music_, had won the British Fantasy Award for Best Anthology. At the same time, I confess this leaves me even more confused about why the publisher is unable to pay for contributions to its anthologies.

I'm aware that there is an Elastic Press forum elsewhere on this website. I thought it would make more sense to post here, since my question involves broader issues regarding standards and norms in UK publishing, which, I figure, may simply be unclear to me because I'm a foreigner. I would be glad to hear from anyone representing Elastic Press, as well as from those not affiliated, to help clear up my confusion on this matter.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Best,
- Susannah

[John Jarrold]

Small presses sometimes do pay in copies of the book. It's best to check out each individual publisher's guidelines, as you have, and submit or not as you feel happy to do. And do ask Andrew Hook, on the Elastic Press forum, too. He'll give you a much fuller reply!

[Ian Whates]

Just to back-up what John has said, I'm sure Andrew would love to pay all contributors to such anthologies handsomely, but it simply wouldn't be economically viable for him to do so. Andrew began Elastic Press because of his frustration at the lack of available markets for short fiction, and has established an enviable reputation for publishing quality fiction from both lesser known and completely unknown writers. Much of what Elastic has published may well have languished unseen otherwise and I greatly admire his courage in taking this approach.

Me, I'm a coward. When I launched my own publishing house NewCon Press last year, I made sure the books contained loads of well known authors and came out as signed limited editions to boot!

[Andrew Hook]

Hi Susannah

Many thanks for the query (and to Ian for pointing it out, as I don't come here as often as I should!)

I agree that in most instances authors should expect some renumeration for their work, and as an author myself I always tend to approach paying markets before submitting work to non-paying markets. However, having run Elastic Press for five years now I'm much more aware of the constraints on time and money that publishing involves and it's a fact that some worthwhile projects wouldn't exist at all if it wasn't for writers submitting their work for free.

With the single-author collections we publish, our authors are renumerated on a 50% of the profits basis - it doesn't always amount to much, but we're glad we can pay at least something. However, for the anthologies, splitting profits amongst 20+ people would almost be an insult in the amount we'd be able to pay, and therefore we hope that writers are happy to submit stories for the kudos of being published by us in itself. As you say, we've won the BFS best anthology award three years running now, and whilst that doesn't (believe it or not) equate into tremendous sales (or any additional sales!), it does add credence to our publishing house and hopefully draws attention to us from people who wouldn't otherwise have heard of us - this raises the profile of the writers that we publish. Mentioning the "Extended Play" anthology for example, even the musicians who took part (both in writing for the book and performing at the launch) did so for free, perhaps realising that any publicity at all is better than a few pounds as a thank you.

Perhaps I should mention that in the five years running Elastic Press - mostly in my spare time as an overgrown hobby - I've never drawn a penny out of the profits for myself, and all the money I make is ploughed back into the company to promote new authors who excite me. And we focus on new writers, mixed genre, short stories - the three things which most booksellers are very reluctant to stock! - so selling ANY books at all is always a struggle, never mind making a profit from it

If you look at ralan.com you'll see there are many magazines listed who only pay in copies, and that's because if they paid in cash there would only ever be one or two issues of that magazine. Small publishers - in the main - are lucky to cover their costs; often no more. And as I say, we do pay on our collections, although not the anthologies for reasons mentioned above.

There's more I could say (but my spaghetti is ready!). I'm interested in your response and any others who might want to add to the topic too!

[Giovanna Clairval]

Hi, Andrew

If you are not tired of explaining this, and your spaghetti (hey, this is a plural word!) are a souvenir, now, could you tell us something about the genre (or crossover-genre) your publishing house defends?

As a kick-off... slipstream is not magic realism, certainly not new weird, and absolutely not bizzarro... (I like the Italian double "Z", indulge me)

[Andrew Hook]

Hi Giovanna

Well, we tend to publish "slipstream" and in many ways I don't know what that is until I see it!

Generally, I publish what I like - and that's what excites me: a story that makes me want to read it over and again, and one which I feel some "connection" with. The word "slipstream" has been used on and off - in the context that I refer to it - within the UK independent press since the mid-80's, and is usually meant to imply a fiction which may contain elements of the fantastic, but where the story itself is grounded in reality and where characters are more important than plot. This is a sweeping generalisation, one which a lot of people - probably even the authors I've published - might disagree with, and which, in many ways, is a coverall for almost every type of story published. Despite that, it's still the term I'm most comfortable with as a writer and publisher.

Yet, we have published collections of almost pure-literary fiction, we've done horror, we'll be doing a lot of SF next year, and all the other genres inbetween. What I will say is that a lot of the books we've published wouldn't have been published by some of the other publishers because they're not genre-specific enough.

The quote you've mentioned comes from Allen Ashley's guidelines for Subtle Edens, and whilst we generally agree on what slipstream is, for this book "slipstream" will be what Allen feels it to be - and like me, will probably be something that he can only define once he's read it.

I'm not sure if that's an answer to the question. Best thing if you're thinking of submitting, is to read some of the stuff we've published, and to send the submission over. We'll soon tell you whether we think it's slipstream or not

[Giovanna Clairval]

Well, I didn't quote anyone (haven't read Ashley's guidelines)! I just wrote what I thought the sub-genre was not.

Bruce Sterling dressed a list of slipstream novels (in his opinion), and another list is visible on Nova Express, Volume 5, Issue 2 (this one was established with his accomplice Lawrence Person).

Or here:

Slipstream Master List

[Andrew Hook]

Sorry about thinking you'd quoted Allen! It sounded like one of his soundbites (the not new-weird, not bizarro thing!), and I thought you'd read the submission guidelines to the project on our website. Guess I should have checked!

I agree with quite a few entries in the list you've linked to. Really, as I said, it's hard to define it other than I know what it is for me when I see it!

[John Jarrold]

It's the answer many mainstream genre editors give when you ask what sort of fantasy or SF they are looking to publish: I'll know it when I see it!

[Troo]

To go back to the original poster, I would usually agree that if a market doesn't pay, don't submit to it. That said, I publish a quarterly that doesn't pay, and nor does it charge. You have to evaluate the non-paying market to see what else it offers you. Is it kosher? (Elastic certainly is, but I'm talking more generally). Are they going to profit from your generosity? Are you going to gain exposure and experience that you lacked previously?


You also have to evaluate what you want out of publication. Are you in it for the money? For the love of writing? Do you want to see your name in print? Do you want to evoke a response in readers?

Can the non-paying market's goals and yours align in any way?

Non-paying markets are a low rung on a long ladder, but they are a rung nonetheless, and well worth considering. You never know who reads that non-paying magazine, after all...

[neilwilliamson]

Troo raises some good points. My experience is that I align myself quite often with low-paying or non-paying markets. I'd rather see my fiction appear in neat places than receive a small amount of cash. A large amount of cash is a different matter, but that's not what we're talking about here.

Truth of the matter is you're unlikely to make any kind of a living writing short stories, even if you only sell to the top professional markets. And while pay rate might be seen as a general indication of a magazine's credibility - or at least it's professionalism - it can only be a very rough one. As Andrew has indicated, the independent press market in the UK is too small to support many professional-paying publications that are going to last. Many can only publish at all due to arts council funding and the like, but the fact that they can't pay doesn't mean that they aren't worth contributing to.

Exposure is a certain benefit. Getting yourself into the pages of cool publications will get your name around, get you noticed by Years Best editors, and perhaps give you opportunities to sell to better paid markets. As to what these cool publications are, my advice is to read a bunch and make up your own mind which ones you like.


If you were to ask me is it worth submitting something to Subtle Edens, even though there's no money involved, I'd say unreservedly yes.

[Troo]

Couldn't agree more, Neil.

[Barney]

To add my take on the issue of non-paying markets...

It's natural to think that the investment in time, effort, and soul-searching that goes into germinating an idea, writing it up into a story, and redrafting it, jolly well deserves some recompense if it gets published. Especially if you really feel that your story has genuine worth.
I say that as someone who writes short stories and is at the stage where I want to find out if my work is publishable or not. So recently I have been looking at the markets and trying to decide who I should submit to.

After some research I realised that many of my assumptions were wrong. In my blinkered way I thought non-paying magazines or e-zines must only publish shoddy work that couldn't get accepted anywhere else.
I was very wrong. I have been been blown away by the standard of work that appears in e-zines such as Pantechnicon. These are stories I would cheerfully pay to read.

Getting a story published in a non-paying journal with high standards must be hard. Succeeding in that should be good validation and reward in itself, although it is hard to get away from the idea that worth is measured in currency!

[Troo]

And now I'm blushing