Tyrion's Third - Tywin and the Greyjoys.

[Boaz]

I think my favorite chapter from ASOIAF so far is Tyrion’s third chapter that starts on page 254 of my US paperback. There are not any battles, kisses, duels, executions, or marriages. No, the excitement here is in all of the information of being given to us.

Tyrion returns to the the Small Council as Master of Coin; Littlefinger leaves for the Vale; the Martells are coming to KL; Robb seems isolated; Cersei may be murdering Lancel next; Balon wants an alliance; the Tyrells expand their lands; Cersei and Tyrion both are going to get engaged; Tarly defeats Glover at Duskendale.

Yet there is even more under the surface.

I’m going to post a number of my observations in new threads. I thought about combining them under the banner of this particular chapter, but I think there’s too much for one thread.

The top of this thread is the possible alliance between Lannister and Greyjoy. In the second full paragraph on 260, we see Tyrion’s thoughts. First he remembers Tywin’s words, then he ponders the ramifications of his father’s words.

Some battles are won with swords and spears, aothers with quills and ravens…
He wondered who the “better option” was and what sort of price he was demanding.

Tywin is publicly refusing Balon’s offer and Tyrion assumes this is because Tywin has something better up his sleeve. We know that Balon died soon after this and was replaced as King of the Iron Islands by his brother Euron. Euron had been gone for years and years, yet showed up the day after Balon died. I had always assumed that Euron had Balon assassinated by a Faceless Man, but mayhaps Tywin had a hand in it.

After Euron consolidated the Ironborn under his rule, what did he do? He went plundering.

Where? Did he plunder his helpless enemies, the Starks? No. He bypassed the undefended Lannister, Stark and Tully coasts and went straight at the Tyrells. When Euron went plundering he did not attack his secret ally, the Lannisters… i.e. in addition to the Westerlands, the Lannisters were the de facto rulers of the Riverlands (Tully) and the overlords of the North (Bolton).

Tywin needed the Martells, but he did not want them stronger than the Lannisters. He may have been using the Greyjoys to take the Tyrells down a notch. If Loras, Garlan, or Mace died fighting the Greyjoys, then the Lannister power surrounding Margaery increases. It appears that Loras was horribly disfigured attacking Stannis. Also, if Tywin could get Mace to sacrifice thousands of his own men against Euron, then the Lannisters gain military power. I guess I think that a Greyjoy kingdom can stand against a divided Westeros, but not against a united one. Robert proved this in Balon’s Rebellion. So I figure that after letting Euron bleed Mace for a while, Tywin would gather a mighty army and assault Pyke. Of course, he’d put the Arryns and Tullys in the front ranks…

Of course I’m assuming that Tywin’s contact was Euron. But it could have been Asha or Theon. I doubt Theon since there was no overt mention of this in his ACOK chapters… but he does send birds from Winterfell in his last chapter. Maybe he sent one to Tywin…

It could be Asha, but why would she have her father killed at such a critical time? She knew his wish was that she inherit after him and she knew that this was not common knowledge yet.

Also any of the men who attended the moot might have contacted Tywin about helping them take the throne from Balon, but somehow I doubt this.

I think it’s Euron.

Now what was the price for Balon’s head? Hamstringing the Martells? Sacking Oldtown?

Does hurting the Tyrells, Tywin’s biggest ally, really benefit the Lannisters? Or is it merely the pressure of of raids that takes Mace and most of the Tyrells away from KL? No, I think the price is too cheap for Euron.

The price for Tywin to let Walder Frey join the winning side was for Walder to betray Robb. I imagine the price for Euron’s crown would be higher than that.

Mayhaps Dany is the price.

[MIDNIGHT]

Oh my, your hands must hurt from all of this typing. Impressive.

[Boaz]

My fingers are bleeding! By they way, do you have any band aids left over from your tongue?

Come on, Midnight. I think the Tywin involvement in Balon's death is intruiging and all you can say is, "Boaz, you are verbose." Talk about bursting my balloon...

[MIDNIGHT]

Originally Posted by Boaz

My fingers are bleeding! By they way, do you have any band aids left over from your tongue?

Come on, Midnight. I think the Tywin involvement in Balon's death is intruiging and all you can say is, "Boaz, you are verbose." Talk about bursting my balloon...

Verbose is an awfully big word for a country bumkin like me....hold on gotta check my dictionary....hahahaha you are definetly more wordy than me !
Yes Boaz, you are extraordinary, I have never thought of Tywins envolvement
with string pulling to have gone quite so far. He does have the motivation though. You are a god. I humbly bow down before you. I've looked at your other 2 posts as well, but honestly I'm far to tired to add anything. I will reread in the morning. Promise !!

[lauren20062001]

But Euron sent Victarian to Dany. Do you think he was sent to capture the dragons with the horn and kill Dany? Or do you think he's supposed to convince Dany to ally with the Ironborn and the Lannisters? Either way isn't Victarian likely to not do whatever Euron sent him to do, since he really seems to hate his brother?

[Centurion]

Fantastic reasoning, i wonder why i never thought twice about Euron's decision to sack the Martells. Only an alliance can explain why Euron did not sack Lannisport- Remember the Lannisters were at the time very overstretched, plus the Westerlands are closer to the Iron Islands.

[Shacklock]

Erm Martells, dont you mean Tyrells? Or am I missing something?

It all sounds completly probable. 'cept. How would he get a raven to correspond with Euron who was somewhere on the other-side of the world.

[Boaz]

Shack, I dunno. Maybe, Euron was secretly at Lannisport.

Mid, You are killing my ego!

[TK-421]

I doubt very much that Tywin has actually thought long enough of Dany and her mystical dragons. Euron's prize from Tywin was more short-sighted than that: plunder the Tyrells, gain some land and "protection" from the Lannisters.

[viZion]

The Greyjoys and Lannisters seems to be perfect allies. Each house is only out for itself and only wants to serve under their own rule. It could be that the Lannisters were convinced to let the Greyjoys have their little Iron Islands kingdom in exchange for harassing Lannister enemies while leaving Lannister held lands alone. Do the Lannisters really care about a bunch of barren island rocks in the North? Other rulers were too prideful to let those islands out of their possession but I could see the Lannisters not really caring about whatever small resources those islands produce and as allies they could get whatever they need from there anyway. At the same time, they gain a navy with their Greyjoy alliance. Letting the Greyjoys call themselves kings is a small price to pay for having an on-call navy manned by some of the best sailors in the world.

[MIDNIGHT]

Some of the best sailors in the world ??? BAHAHAHAHHA NO me thinks not !! The Greyjoys are kind of like Vikings with boats that can't go to far from land. Oh yes some of them(Euron) have gone far, ON LUCK !! The reason the Lannisters weren't attacked is their cities are to well protected. Come on, the longships are better suited to raids, go in, plunder, and get the hell out ! Sure they can cause heaps of trouble and distruction, but are they capable of holding anything for long ? They have their use, don't get me wrong, but they certainly aren't a superpower. Sure the pirates in the bathtub boats could take over a yaught, but only if the captain was a fat , aging, narcoleptic, drunk. Their strength is in numbers, skill, and surprise. Not the type to hold a large, well defended city.

Now, Boaz..... Yes Tywin was quite likely having some sort of discussions with Balon, but murdering him..... The Greyjoys are raiders, how would you know where one would turn up next? To murder Balon and hope that one of the siblings would feel honor bound to join your cause is just...funny. Sure Tywin would have handed Balon a "kingly title", but we all know Balon had his eye on a much larger prize. He pays the iron price, he would never take a handout from Tywin. If he was murdered by Lannisters, I would think it would have been just to remove him as a potential threat. Euron showing up a day later ? Well, Eurons own words "coinsidence".
Was it the Iron Islanders , who were the ones that removed Balon? Euron ? Likely. Victorion ? Unlikely . Asha? Doubt it. Some sort of red priestess devil baby ? Thats where my money would lie !
No doubt the longships will have a huge part to play, but I think this has more to do with horns and dragons , not Lannisters.

[TK-421]

Midnight, I think you underestimate the Ironmen and their fleet under the command of Euron and Victarion. In fact, they do have ships large enough to sail the open seas and circumnavigate the world as Euron has done. He could not have been gone for so long sailing around the world and even going to old Valyria with only luck on his side. True Lannisport and Casterly Rock are very well defended and I do contend that the Ironmen could actually take them. I think the description should be more that the Ironmen are the best sailors in Westeros and not necessarily the world. You don't live an island and simply become "a pirate in a bathtub". Reread, what I think is the second last Victarion POV in AFFC and you will see that part of the Tyrell the Ironmen crush are not fat, aging, narcoleptic or drunk.

[Shacklock]

I will defend the Iron-born being that I play one in LoW :P
Naaah. The Longships are fast and manovrable, able to land right onto a beach and deposite about 30 angry axe-wielding men onto your deck.
The Iron-Fleet also has Drommonds which are very nice ships.
Dromon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Aegon the Unworthy]

But there werent very many dromonds.... (3 or 4 if the card game is right...thats a joke)thats why Eurons sailing is so spectacular.

The speculation Tywin was referring to at that point Im sure was the Red Wedding. Not Balon.

Who killed Balon? I dont know. I have thought though that Euron isnt in league with anyone....I think he has green dreams. But....it would be easy to predict the day your brother dies with the help of coinage and a faceless man signup sheet...

[MIDNIGHT]

Originally Posted by TK-421

Midnight, I think you underestimate the Ironmen and their fleet under the command of Euron and Victarion. In fact, they do have ships large enough to sail the open seas and circumnavigate the world as Euron has done. He could not have been gone for so long sailing around the world and even going to old Valyria with only luck on his side. True Lannisport and Casterly Rock are very well defended and I do contend that the Ironmen could actually take them. I think the description should be more that the Ironmen are the best sailors in Westeros and not necessarily the world. You don't live an island and simply become "a pirate in a bathtub". Reread, what I think is the second last Victarion POV in AFFC and you will see that part of the Tyrell the Ironmen crush are not fat, aging, narcoleptic or drunk.

Even the other Ironborn were surprised that Euron made it back from Valyria. The longships are more designed for raiding than for lengthy days at sea. In a storm my money would be on a galley, not a longship. Euron success at open sea with Silence I think would be due to his mysterious crew. Victorian will make it to Dany, but I would wager that his loses will be high. Har the sea is in their blood I do agree, fantastic raiders yes, but to be great sailors their longships are gonna need to handle the open sea at length.