Question re copyrights and stuff

[iansales]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

But, Ian, there's a difference between hiding a manuscript from everybody and sending the entire thing to someone you don't know at all. I would never recommend the former. In fact, I did recommend joining a writers group.

But, Teresa, sending the ms to a writers' group is effectively sending it to someone you don't know at all :-)

I knew someone who would send a copy of everything he wrote to the Library of Congress, because he thought that was how you copyrighted your work. I suspect they threw them in the bin...

[Culhwch]

I believe Teresa's advice was to join a writer's group, but not necessarily an online writer's group. The old fashioned kind, where you actually do know the people involved...

[Giovanna Clairval]

Teresa, it is true that sending the ms to oneself wouldn't hold in court (in the US), but it is a "beginning of evidence" in French Legalese, which must have its equivalent in English.

As for me, I deposited the ms in my solicitor's vault (she didn't ask for any fees).

Well, in France and Italy we have "notaires" and "notai", which I render with "solicitors" because the exact term does not exist in English (at least in the Islands). I believe your "notary public" covers a much more restricted area of intervention (recording of oaths and the like). Our "notaire" is the intermediary (sworn) person who records any private contract (marriages, estate acquisitions, donations within a family,...). It's strange that this profession, which goes back to the Roman Right, does not find its exact equivalent in your countries.

[iansales]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

I believe Teresa's advice was to join a writer's group, but not necessarily an online writer's group. The old fashioned kind...

Ah, I see. So meeting them face to face means you "know" them?

:-)

[Culhwch]

Originally Posted by iansales

Ah, I see. So meeting them face to face means you "know" them?

:-)

I imagine moreso than an online group - though of course to generalise is pointless. But for the most part, I don't even know the real names of most folks I share my work with here. But if I could find a writer's group to join in my neighbourhood, I imagine none would come and present themselves as 'purplekitty_88'.

[iansales]

I'd be a bit worried if they did...

[Giovanna Clairval]

I've never been in a writers' group, but the thing I pick up by discussing with friends is that, in a group, most writers think their stuff is so superior, compared with anyone else's production, that they would never stoop to steal a thing.

[iansales]

I've been in a couple of on-line ones, and I'm setting up a face-to-face one here in Sheffield (if anyone's interested).

[Culhwch]

Originally Posted by iansales

I've been in a couple of on-line ones, and I'm setting up a face-to-face one here in Sheffield (if anyone's interested).

I'm afraid the commute would be a touch expensive...

[Ursa major]

I've been listening on the Radio here to an American woman who, when she was a student, met an English man whiile they were both on holiday in Bayern (Bavaria). They fell in love, were married, settled in England, and had two children. After thirteen years, they were divorced. Four years after that, she found out, from the Police, that her ex-spouse was not who he said he was. He wasn't even English.

The man was convicted of obtaining a passport under false pretences; and even then he wouldn't say who he was. Later, his wife discovered that he was from Florida.

As for the man, he changed his name by deed poll to the name under which he'd been living for decades. (To be fair, neither his assumed nor given name was 'purplekitty_88'.)

[Teresa Edgerton]

I was, indeed, talking about an old-fashioned writers group where people meet face to face. And yes, meeting them face to face on a regular basis does, in my opinion, qualify as knowing them pretty well. If you're giving them a few chapters at a time, by the time they have even half the book, you've known them for a while, too. Of course there will always be people like the man from Florida, but I would imagine most of them are after something bigger than an unpublished manuscript.

I have had very little experience of online critiques, but if other forums are like this one, people are only posting bits and pieces of their work. Under those circumstances, the infrequency of plagiarism hardly seems significant, because what would anyone stand to gain by stealing a chapter here and there? But your other protection is the fact that many people are reading your work at the same time, and all of them can vouch for it being yours. That protection would equally apply to a private online workshop where larger sections or even whole manuscripts are being read. And so -- speaking only for myself -- if I was sending an entire manuscript to someone I didn't know, I would feel far safer sending it to five or six someones I didn't know.

But really, I don't think that I would ever send something to a stranger who was "desperate to read it" after a few chapters. Perhaps this is small-minded of me, but since I can't imagine being desperate to read the rest of anything after only a few chapters (very interested, yes, but not desperate -- it takes rather more than that for me to become so thoroughly attached to the characters, and I don't care how great the writer is), it's hard for me to imagine that anyone else would be so very eager after reading so little, unless there was more to it than a simple desire to find out what happens next. I don't necessarily mean that he has ulterior motives. He just may be too attached to give an unbiased opinion.

But when someone is too pressingly eager to do someone else a favor ... that's a bit of a danger signal.

On the other hand, maybe Kissmequick was using the term desperate a little loosely.

Giovanna, I'm not sure what good a notary would do, unless they stamped every single page, which would be expensive. Also, lawyers are very expensive over here, and many of us don't have one -- unless we suddenly find ourselves in a situation where we require legal advice -- and couldn't afford the retainer that would undoubtedly go with asking one to hold a manuscript.

[Giovanna Clairval]

What did my solicitor (not a "notary", as I explained) do with my ms?

She took the sealed envelope, put it in her vault, and then delivered an official-looking paper (the receipt she usually gives when she takes important documents--so kind!) certifying that she had received a sealed envelope that particular day, and she put an impressive rubber stamp on it. I loved the whole process .

In the very-unlikely event that someone tried to publish my novel in my stead, I would have a "huissier" (another individual that has taken the oath of relating anything she's asked to relate in a faithful manner) open the envelope. This certification holds a character of truth.
Btw, this "hussier" is a bailiff.

[Teresa Edgerton]

But here, the only people who put that kind of stamp on things, or certify signatures or documents under oath, are notary publics. And they don't take charge of documents, not that I have ever heard. (My daughter is a notary public, I could ask her, if somebody else doesn't have a definite answer to that.)

And we don't have any equivalent for "solicitor" here. As I understand it, our lawyers do what English solicitors and barristers do all rolled into one, and their fees are correspondingly high. I doubt that an American lawyer would take charge of a manuscript unless a) there was some legal action pending or b) (as a courtesy) if the writer of the manuscript was already a client. If they did do so under any other circumstances, I am sure there would be a hefty fee as a retainer involved.

Kissmequick is English, so perhaps she could avail herself of the services of an English solicitor in that way. Our British members may be able to comment on that. But for the majority of the Americans who might be reading this topic and thinking about following the advice here, asking a lawyer to hold a manuscript would not be a practical step.

[Wiglaf]

Protecting your work after sending it is not the issue; economics is. The cost of prooving your case is likely to exceed what you might receive in damages.

[Kissmequick]

Well maybe desperate was a bit strong Teresa. Quite keen would maybe be better.

Two of my friends also have copies of the MS on their harddrives for me. And one of my husbands clients is quite a big law firm so I suspect I could avail myself of their services, and I doubt they would charge, whether I decide to send the ending off to this guy or not.

It's been an interesting discussion anyway