Question re copyrights and stuff

[Kissmequick]

I wonder what the position would be if your book appeared on the Web in its complete, if draft, form. Would it be seen to have been published? What redress do you have? What would the opinion of potential agents and publishers be?

Surely that would still be breach of copyright / intellectual property? As such I would assume some steps could be taken to stop it staying on the net?

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by Kissmequick

Surely that would still be breach of copyright / intellectual property? As such I would assume some steps could be taken to stop it staying on the net?

So would I, but what would be your redress? Have you lost any revenue, and if so, how much? How much would it cost to prove? (I'm asuming a prank rather than a theft, here.) And do you know anything about the real person behind the Email address?

But I was more concerned about the attitude of the industry: would they care or not? (And I know this is all very unlikely; I'd just like to know, if possible.)

[iansales]

If the book is unpublished, then no revenue will have been lost. And someone posting it without the author's permission would not affect the author's rights should they try to sell it.

Cases of plagiarism are rare, because it's difficult to succeed at it. The plagiariser (if there is such a word) has to sell the plagiarised work as their own. And we all know that getting published is hard*...

(* unless you're a celebrity... and would a celebrity steal a work when they could just get something ghost-written? :-))

[Kissmequick]

And do you know anything about the real person behind the Email address?

I do a little yes. And it should be easy to keep track of, as if I google the main character's name, all that comes up is the few posts I made with that name on a forum. Anything else pops up and I'll be sending the boys round

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

A more serious post from me, this time.

I wonder what the position would be if your book appeared on the Web in its complete, if draft, form. Would it be seen to have been published? What redress do you have? What would the opinion of potential agents and publishers be?

I know that these are unlikely consequences of mailing the document to this man, but I'd like to know what those more experienced with the industry think about this.

This is a very good question. It would be considered a published work, which would not be helpful in selling the manuscript to a publisher. How long it was actually on the web might factor in, though. (If you found out within a few days and made him remove it, for instance.)

What redress you might have -- you could sue the person responsible, but a court would probably have a hard time figuring out the damages on an unpublished manuscript, since no value has been established.

The best protection against something like this happening is that no one would have much to gain by doing it. That doesn't mean that there isn't somebody somewhere in the world who would put another person's work on the web for the ego gratification of claiming it, however briefly, as his or her own. Yes, you could ultimately prove that it was yours, but only after a lot of trouble and stress and expense.

I, personally, would be wary about sending an electronic file of an entire book to someone I didn't know very well, someone who hadn't a professional reputation to maintain. When you send something to a publisher or an agent, their ability to go on doing business depends on maintaining the public's trust; they stand to lose far more by stealing a writer's work than they are likely gain by it. This would not be the case here. Miniscule as the chances are that he would steal from you, are the benefits you might expect to gain by sending it to him enough to offset even that tiny risk? Perhaps you've gained valuable insights from his critique of the part he's already seen. The possibility of gaining more valuable input would definitely be something to weigh in the balance. But if you are thinking about sending it to him mostly because you are flattered that he asked, I don't think that should weigh in favor of sending it.

[Kissmequick]

Well his critiques have been extremely helpful tbh. I've got to know him a little bit in our e-mails and the forums we both post on. He's always come across as a decent chap ( even on the sites where every other post is a flame or incitement to something nasty, he was always a poster worth reading for his fairmindedness and geniality)


Nobody has read the end of the book except myself, and tbh I'd really like his input as to whether it lives up to expectations. ofc I'm flattered he asked, but there is more of a * I want to know what he thinks* feel to it. He's A1 my target audience, and it was his critiques that persuaded me I wasn't completely hopeless, even while it pointed out where I could improve.

[Ursa major]

As an aside, it is sometimes misleading to think of the actions of others in terms of what financial gain they may derive from their activities. Some people simply like to humilate others; I'm thinking of those people who broadcast private mails, etc.

But if you do think this way, you're not alone. I once read a very learnèd report (book-length) on all aspects of data that stated that if you could make it impossible (or very difficult) for a hacker or data-intruder to make money from breaking into a system, you had solved your security problems.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Only you can decide whether you know him well enough and if his comments are likely to be valuable enough.

[Ursa major]

Originally Posted by Kissmequick

Nobody has read the end of the book except myself, and tbh I'd really like his input as to whether it lives up to expectations. ofc I'm flattered he asked, but there is more of a * I want to know what he thinks* feel to it. He's A1 my target audience, and it was his critiques that persuaded me I wasn't completely hopeless, even while it pointed out where I could improve.

To protect yourself, you could try to send excerpts, I suppose. But you shouldn't treat him as The Reader; for one thing, he's only one person. For another, he's the least likely person to buy your book: he'll have read it for free.

You must have your own doubts about sending the whole book, or you wouldn't be asking what we think about it. It would be best to be cautious.

[Kissmequick]

Only you can decide whether you know him well enough and if his comments are likely to be valuable enough.

*sigh*

I know - the trouble is I'm an eternal optimist in everything but my writing, and it gets me into trouble at times...

And in my writing I'm my own worst critic, which is why I want an objective view from someone who doesn't know me ( and will therefore say *it's great* so as not to upset me, even if I ask them to be honest I can't be sure they are)

edit: he's not THE reader, just one. all the others helped a lot, but this guy really was something else.

[Teresa Edgerton]

If he's had a lot to do with shaping the manuscript he may have a sense of ownership -- not in the sense of feeling justified in ripping you off, but in the sense that he is no longer as unbiased a reader as he was before. If you've followed many of his suggestions, he is likely (in all sincerity, but not necessarily impartially) to be charmed by those parts. In short, he may have become invested in portions of the manuscript in much the same way you are. (Over many years working with different critique groups, I never heard anyone say, "Oh my gosh, I see now that I gave you very bad advice. I wish you hadn't followed it.")

This is one reason why it's a good idea to join a writers group and have several people critique the entire manuscript as you work on it -- different people will "own" different parts, and can maintain the necessary distance toward all the rest. (Also, you know where they live.)

Again, only you know if his influence over your writing has been such that there is a danger he might have become a fond godfather to the project, instead of the impartial reader he was before.

[Kissmequick]

hmm

as I say he is only one of several readers. He hasn't been overlly fond of any one part as such, and there haven't been major changes, at least structurally. He's certainly never recommended *put this in here* or any such, just a general why this part isn't so good, or that part is. ( ie - chapter two is slow, need to tighten that up and take out the exposition that snuck in there while I wasn't looking) He comes across as just eager to know what happens at the end tbh.

[iansales]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

I, personally, would be wary about sending an electronic file of an entire book to someone I didn't know very well, someone who hadn't a professional reputation to maintain.

That happens on a frequent basis in online writing workshops. Not only is your fiction "published" - and not always behind a password - but total strangers get to download copies for themselves. What assurances do you have that those people are who they say they are? And, to make matters worse, you know they're as keen to be published as you are.

But... guess what? Plagiarism doesn't happen. Or happens so infrequently it's never mentioned.

To be honest, Kissmequick, from your comments any feedback you get from bloke this is going to be so useful enough that it's not worth worrying about the incredibly remote possibility that he might rip you off. And he's not likely to. Do you know why? Because if he's interested in reading and commenting your own ms, then he too is likely a writer. And he might well ask the same favour of you.

I've come across unpublished writers keeping their manuscripts secret from everyone except editors and agents before, and I've never understood it. I know of a couple of authors who were published as a result of others reading their unpublished novels. Those readers created a buzz... which eventually reached the ears of an editor...

[Teresa Edgerton]

But, Ian, there's a difference between hiding a manuscript from everybody and sending the entire thing to someone you don't know at all. I would never recommend the former. In fact, I did recommend joining a writers group.


Kissmequick, it sounds to me like you already know what you want to do, you just want reassurance that you are doing the right thing. But you are the one with all of the information, and everything to gain or lose.

I know of a couple of authors who were published as a result of others reading their unpublished novels. Those readers created a buzz... which eventually reached the ears of an editor.

This actually happened to me with one of my books, because a writer friend who had seen my partial a few years before was working (briefly) as an editorial assistant at Avon. But I wouldn't use that as an example of why it's a good idea to show your work to strangers; she was someone I had known for years.

[Commonmind]

Originally Posted by Ursa major

Commonmind,

Risk is a combination of likelihood and consequence. That's why we insure our houses: not because we believe our house will, for instance, burn down during the term of the policy, but because of the loss we would sustain if it did.

If the consequences of your work being posted somewhere public are very bad, why would you risk it? If there are no adverse consequences, then you could happily send your "baby" to whoever asks for it, within reason.

A good point. However, there are far more instances of houses being damaged through fire, weather events and theft than there are examples of individuals stealing manuscripts for personal gain - or, as you stated, to debase or humiliate the author of the work (though I'm not sure how anyone would go about the latter).

Again, the odds are slim, and that was my point.