General Tolkien question

[Cayal]

Are all his books related to each other?

Do they all follow Middle Earth in the Third Age (was it the Third Age). I do know his most recent one, Children of Hurin, is before Lord of the Rings. And Sauron is mentioned in it a few times.

I also know the Hobbit is where the Ring was found by Bilbo.

But are those the only two with the Hobbits, Gandolf, and all that. Or is Gandalf mentioned in others as well?

The reason I ask is my other thread, about Gandalf, some of the responses got me interested in getting more background on him.

[j. d. worthington]

While the bulk of Tolkien's fictional work is related (there are exceptions, such as "Leaf by Niggle", "Farmer Giles of Ham", "Smith of Wootton Major", etc.) it isn't necessarily through character connections, but as a history of Arda. The Silmarillion (not the best place for most Tolkien newbies to start) actually begins with the creation of Arda, gives the major tales of the First Age, and a brief overview of the others. Unfinished Tales has longer, more developed versions of tales from the First Age (though, as the title says, incomplete), as well as some wonderful tales from the Second and Third Ages (the Second Age tales add a lot to an understanding of the complexities behind the Third Age). And so on....

[Marky Lazer]

Yep, Gandalf is in Silmarillion, too, but there we call him Olorin.

[Dean F. Wilson]

As Marky said above, Gandalf makes an appearance in the older tales in his original form as a Maiar (Olórin), but it isn't really mentioned that "this is Gandalf", and he isn't portrayed in any form similar to that which we've come to know and love as Gandalf in the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. It is his state of existence before incarnating in Middle-earth, as it were, and so he is devoid of much of the humanity that Gandalf has.

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

[Little Rascal]

Originally Posted by Dean F. Wilson

As Marky said above, Gandalf makes an appearance in the older tales in his original form as a Maiar (Olórin), but it isn't really mentioned that "this is Gandalf", and he isn't portrayed in any form similar to that which we've come to know and love as Gandalf in the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. It is his state of existence before incarnating in Middle-earth, as it were, and so he is devoid of much of the humanity that Gandalf has.

LLLSHJ,
Yechidah.

With-out trying to be a Pedant, Olorin is not mentioned specifically in the Silmirillion.
The Silm' was written, at least in draught form, before the lord o' t Rings was even concieved. (As was the Hobbit).
He ( Olorin, or the Big G) is a Minor Maiar. He aludes to his past after Moria, but that is about all that is said.
Sauron was also a Maiar but of much greater Power.

On thing that occured to Me when I first read LotRs was why not have the Lord of the Eagles carry Frodo to the Cracks of Doom, saving all the Vexation and risk of sending a Hobbit deep into the heart of Mordor, but that would cut the Story short by about 1000 pages!

BTW,
having the Army of the dead turning up at the battle of the Plennor fields was NOT part of the Book, and NO Enemy passed throught the Gate at Midas Tirith (except the Lord of the Wraithes and then only briefly).
A minor quibble I know but with the resources available to PJackson surely he could have stuck a bit more closely to the book!
And where was Gan Burri Gan? A character close to the Heart of JRR T!

btw, Gandolf was sent to inspire the Elves, Sauriman was the incantation sent to help Humans. But to help move & inspire the Populace of M-Earth towards goodness.
So maybe We should talk of Gandalf's " Elvicity"!

[The Procrastinator]

Originally Posted by Little Rascal

With-out trying to be a Pedant, Olorin is not mentioned specifically in the Silmirillion.

The Inner Pedant of the Time-Waster raises her head...

He is so mentioned in the Silmarillion. My battered old paperback copy has it on page 34, in the Valaquenta, under the section "Of the Maiar":

Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin. He too dwelt in Lorien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience.

My own personal ways have taken me on occasion to the house of Pedantry, but I think that particular deity really was not mentioned in the Silmarillion.

Btw I agree with your quibble about the movies, and I missed Ghan-buri-ghan too. Don't get me started on Treebeard...but really I shouldn't complain too much, he did a pretty good job.

[Boaz]

Been a while, but is there not a mention of the selection of the Istari in the latter part of The Simarillion?

As for background on Hobbits, I'd suggest starting with the opening and closing chapters of The Hobbit, the opening chapters of The Fellowship of the Ring, the closing chapters of The Return of the King, and finally the appendices regarding races and languages in The Return of the King.

Gandalf is a chief character in The Hobbit, The Fellowship of the Ring, the second half of The Two Towers, and The Return of the King. Gandalf is not human. Gandalf is analogous to an Angel. To better understand this, I'd suggest reading the two opening sections of The Silmarillion called the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta.

All that being said, there is no quick fix to explain in one sentence who Gandalf is and who Hobbits are... but I'll try.

Gandalf is the name assumed by a lesser Ainur of Eru (the uncreated Creator) or Maia (i.e. Angel), Olorin when he is sent by the greater Ainur, the Valar, on a mission (with four other Maiar, including Saruman) in the Third Age of Middle-earth to inspire the surviving Children of Eru (the Free Peoples... Elves, Men, Dwarves, Hobbits, and Ents) to resist and defeat Sauron (a rogue Maia).

Hobbits are assumed to be a subset of humanity that appeared for the first time in Eriador (the ancestral lands of Aragorn's people) about 1,500 years before the time of Frodo. That's a bad definition, but how can I encompass Hobbits in one sentence? Tolkien's explanation at the beginning of The Hobbit is the best... I cannot improve on that.

I'll provide a couple of links at the Encyclopedia of Arda.

Gandalf.

Hobbits.

Bon Appetit.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by The Procrastinator

My own personal ways have taken me on occasion to the house of Pedantry, but I think that particular deity really was not mentioned in the Silmarillion.

Procrastinator: which particular deity? Nienna? If, so she is very much mentioned in The Silmarillion; quite a bit, in fact. She is the sister of Mandos and Lorien. Perhaps my favorite passage mentioning her is in the "Valaquenta":

Mightier than Estë [the spouse of Lorien] is Nienna, sister of the Fëanturi; she dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor. so great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began. But she does not weep for herself; and those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope. Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near her own; and all those spirits who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.

Which sounds very much like the sort of spirit that informs Gandalf; and in fact is echoed by many things he says from time to time....

One correction, Boaz: that should be the first half of The Two Towers, not the second half (which is the story of Frodo and Sam in their trek through the Emyn Muil, Ithilien, and to the Pass of Cirith Ungol....

[Boaz]

Uh, well, <ahem> I, err, <cough>... What I meant to say was the second half of the first half of The Two Towers... or more precisely the last two thirds of the first half... Okay, Okay! How about the last eight percent of the first half of TT?

PS - Upon the advice of my attorney, I invoke my Fifth Amendment privilege.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Boaz

Uh, well, <ahem> I, err, <cough>... What I meant to say was the second half of the first half of The Two Towers... or more precisely the last two thirds of the first half... Okay, Okay! How about the last eight percent of the first half of TT?

PS - Upon the advice of my attorney, I invoke my Fifth Amendment privilege.

Ummm, are you saying that faulty memory is now a criminal offense, requiring you to take your protection to not self-incriminate? *thinks back on his own glitches in this light* Hmmm... Might be a good time to take that trip to Tierra del Fuego....

[Boaz]

There's nothing wrong with my ability to be offensive, criminally or otherwise.

It tears me up when I make mistakes regarding Middle-earth... I used to be the ubergeek, yet now I'm just another has been.

I might join you in flight... I hear extradition from Patagonia is nigh impossible. As far as I can tell, Tierra del Fuego is reminiscent of the Helcaraxe.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Boaz

I might join you in flight... I hear extradition from Patagonia is nigh impossible. As far as I can tell, Tierra del Fuego is reminiscent of the Helcaraxe.

Considering the weather we've been having (and it's not even the end of May yet!!!), that last sounds downright attractive -- so I thought I'd combine the two....