Will computers eventually outsmart people? - Page 2 - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums

matt-browne-sfw · 16th November 2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyan

In one very specific way, a computer has already proved it was smarter than a human - when IBM's chess computer Deep Blue beat the then world champion Gary Kasparov 3.5-2.5 in 1997.

IBM Deep Blue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With Blue Brain IBM has become even more ambitious

Blue Brain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A computer simulation of the entire human brain:

The initial goal of the project is the simulation of a neocortical column, which can be considered the smallest functional unit of the neocortex (the part of the brain thought to be responsible for higher functions such as conscious thought). Such a column is about 2 mm tall, has a diameter of 0.5 mm and contains about 60,000 neurons in humans; the simulation will focus on rat neocortical columns, which are very similar in structure but contain only 10,000 neurons (and 10^8 synapses).

ice.monkey · 30th November 2007, 06:05 PM

You would really have to define what 'outsmart' is. Because, as has been pointed out, the speed that a computer can calculate is beyond that of a normal person and so with any math a computer could already be said to 'outsmart' people.

But really, a computer would have to be able to, of its own causality, create something beyond that which has been created by people in order for it to truly 'outsmart' people. In which case it would have to be aware and also aware of being aware. It would have to be capable of completely independent thought.

So you simulate the human brain. You'd have to map every neural network to do that and that hasn't been done. If you read all the present data on the brain you'll see how much is just theory and guesses. It's believed that this part of the brain is responsible for this and that part responsible for that, but if you ask 'how is it responsible?' You won't get a definitive answer.

So for ibm to simulate the human brain when no-one actually knows how it works is just p***ing in the wind and a complete waste of money.

As far as I'm aware only one "animal's" neural network has actually been mapped - that's the C. elegans worm that has a total of 302 nuerons. And this mapping shows which nueron is resposible for what bodily function. And nowhere is a nueron mapped as holding memory, or being aware, or capable of problem solving - or the synapses either. And so it was concluded that C. elegans has no memory or intelligence. Until some bright spark stuck the worms in the classic maze experiment and proved that it does have memory and resolves the problem of where to go for regular food.

So, as yet, science can't even explain how a worm with 302 nuerons works mentally. How the hell can it even come close to mapping the human brain?

Which goes to show how far away from the 'holy grail' of true AI and an aware computer we are if the line of simulating the brain is pursued. Backwards engineering it is too far off to be contemplated now. Other avenues will have to be pursued. Personally I think we're still more likely to destroy the planet before we create a computer that will 'outsmart' people.

Dave · 30th November 2007, 06:22 PM

I listened to a programme on BBC Radio 4 yesterday that was discussing Intelligent Agents. These might be a robot or an embedded real time software system that observes and acts upon an environment. They are capable of perception and action and can learn from experience, so they could be considered intelligent if they interact with their environment in a manner that would normally be regarded as intelligent if that interaction were carried out by a human being. Software based Intelligent Agents have been used to buy and sell on stock markets, and to work out the best time to bid on eBay to win the auction at the lowest price (this isn't actually at the very, very last moment apparently, because as that is what everyone tries to do, that strategy fails to work.)

But they aren't really intelligent, even though they can learn to do better with experience, they are still only as clever as the person who wrote them.

manephelien · 1st December 2007, 01:05 PM

Indeed. Computers are able to simulate various parts of human (and I'd argue mammalian) intelligence, but it'll take a while before computers are able to make a more or less coherent whole of it. Computers are good at the kinds of tasks that require left-brain intelligence, i.e. numbers and linear reasoning. They're just about useless at taking a lot of disparate and apparently unconnected facts and make a working hypothesis of it, i.e. right-brain functions which are more parallel in nature. If we ever get quantum processing to work on a large scale, that may change. Computers are just about useless at understanding language, for example. That's why there'll be work for translators like me for a long time to come.

Ursa major · 1st December 2007, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

...so they could be considered intelligent if they interact with their environment in a manner that would normally be regarded as intelligent if that interaction were carried out by a human being. Software based Intelligent Agents have been used to buy and sell on stock markets....

So they can exhibit herd instincts, can they?

Given that a company's perceived value, based on its share price, can vary widely (by one or more percentage points) each day, yet on the Friday end close to its Monday starting price, I wouldn't want this to be used as a definitive measure of human intelligence. Sheep, maybe....

matt-browne-sfw · 3rd December 2007, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ice.monkey

You would really have to define what 'outsmart' is. Because, as has been pointed out, the speed that a computer can calculate is beyond that of a normal person and so with any math a computer could already be said to 'outsmart' people.

Okay, what I meant was passing the Turing test and begin a process of intelligence explosion which includes the capability of self-improvements.

Lith · 7th December 2007, 01:41 AM

Computers can be programmed to mimic human brain functions, pattern recognitions, etc. Yahoo sends spiders around the web to find info, cookies in your computer tag what you like and don't like and offer suggestions (via advertising) that they think you might like. Hell, my cousin has a camera that can focus on a face. Computers can, to a degree, master language and recognize it when you scan a sheet into the computer.

But it all depends on what we program it to do. Though give it enough time, and a computer can likely tell you more about yourself than you'll be comfortable hearing, because they can track such huge amounts of data without the limits of the mind and body. And it's only a matter of time until computers take over the world, or until a handful of people take over the world with these computers, because foresight in the face of new technology isn't one of humanity's assets.

Stormflame · 10th December 2007, 01:40 AM

I think the whole idea of the movie Terminator is too far. If a computer gets too smart, what do you do!?
Pull the plug...
But, I must think all of the sudden...hmm...could we shut down the internet if we tried. It is almost a living breathing thing....hmmm....

Dave · 14th December 2007, 02:21 AM

Well one progam, at least, has been outsmarting people!

It is called Cyberlover and it has been fooling visitors to Russian chatrooms and gaining some very personal information from them. These links have more:
The oldest profession combined with the newest technology | Technology | The Guardian
Russian computer program fakes chatroom flirting | Technology | Reuters
Newsvine - Slutbot aces Turing Test*
Warning sounded over CyberLover :: Hack In The Box :: Keeping Knowledge Free
Warning sounded over 'flirting robots' | Beyond Binary - A blog by Ina Fried - CNET News.com

Karn Maeshalanadae · 14th December 2007, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

Well one progam, at least, has been outsmarting people!

It is called Cyberlover and it has been fooling visitors to Russian chatrooms and gaining some very personal information from them. These links have more:
The oldest profession combined with the newest technology | Technology | The Guardian
Russian computer program fakes chatroom flirting | Technology | Reuters
Newsvine - Slutbot aces Turing Test*
Warning sounded over CyberLover :: Hack In The Box :: Keeping Knowledge Free
Warning sounded over 'flirting robots' | Beyond Binary - A blog by Ina Fried - CNET News.com

Sounds like a common virus to me. Nothing is completely immune to every single virus, and some are just like major programs. So that's not really being smarter than a human...I'm sure there's people out there smart enough not to fall for it.

Ursa major · 14th December 2007, 04:26 PM

Does it give itself away by complaining about all the diodes down its side aching when you suggest an early night?

AE35Unit · 14th December 2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Will computers eventually outsmart people?

Well, this one bloody well won't!

SpaceShip · 14th December 2007, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangaloomababe

Gosh mine often outsmarts me already!!!!!!!!!

Often? Mine nearly always does!

Marky Lazer · 14th December 2007, 08:03 PM

Aren't computers outsmarting most people already? Lemme, rephrase that even! Aren't sand grains outsmarting most people already?

matt-browne-sfw · 18th December 2007, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marky Lazer

Aren't computers outsmarting most people already? Lemme, rephrase that even! Aren't sand grains outsmarting most people already?

Show me a computer program that can deal with any Captcha.

30th November 2007, 06:05 PM	#17 (permalink)
ice.monkey Ice...Mon...Key! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Hampshire Posts: 427	Re: Will computers eventually outsmart people? You would really have to define what 'outsmart' is. Because, as has been pointed out, the speed that a computer can calculate is beyond that of a normal person and so with any math a computer could already be said to 'outsmart' people. But really, a computer would have to be able to, of its own causality, create something beyond that which has been created by people in order for it to truly 'outsmart' people. In which case it would have to be aware and also aware of being aware. It would have to be capable of completely independent thought. So you simulate the human brain. You'd have to map every neural network to do that and that hasn't been done. If you read all the present data on the brain you'll see how much is just theory and guesses. It's believed that this part of the brain is responsible for this and that part responsible for that, but if you ask 'how is it responsible?' You won't get a definitive answer. So for ibm to simulate the human brain when no-one actually knows how it works is just p***ing in the wind and a complete waste of money. As far as I'm aware only one "animal's" neural network has actually been mapped - that's the C. elegans worm that has a total of 302 nuerons. And this mapping shows which nueron is resposible for what bodily function. And nowhere is a nueron mapped as holding memory, or being aware, or capable of problem solving - or the synapses either. And so it was concluded that C. elegans has no memory or intelligence. Until some bright spark stuck the worms in the classic maze experiment and proved that it does have memory and resolves the problem of where to go for regular food. So, as yet, science can't even explain how a worm with 302 nuerons works mentally. How the hell can it even come close to mapping the human brain? Which goes to show how far away from the 'holy grail' of true AI and an aware computer we are if the line of simulating the brain is pursued. Backwards engineering it is too far off to be contemplated now. Other avenues will have to be pursued. Personally I think we're still more likely to destroy the planet before we create a computer that will 'outsmart' people.

30th November 2007, 06:22 PM	#18 (permalink)
Dave Wherever I Am, I'm There Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Greater London Posts: 13,781 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Will computers eventually outsmart people? I listened to a programme on BBC Radio 4 yesterday that was discussing Intelligent Agents. These might be a robot or an embedded real time software system that observes and acts upon an environment. They are capable of perception and action and can learn from experience, so they could be considered intelligent if they interact with their environment in a manner that would normally be regarded as intelligent if that interaction were carried out by a human being. Software based Intelligent Agents have been used to buy and sell on stock markets, and to work out the best time to bid on eBay to win the auction at the lowest price (this isn't actually at the very, very last moment apparently, because as that is what everyone tries to do, that strategy fails to work.) But they aren't really intelligent, even though they can learn to do better with experience, they are still only as clever as the person who wrote them.

1st December 2007, 01:05 PM	#19 (permalink)
manephelien Transmural Feline Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Finland Posts: 721	Re: Will computers eventually outsmart people? Indeed. Computers are able to simulate various parts of human (and I'd argue mammalian) intelligence, but it'll take a while before computers are able to make a more or less coherent whole of it. Computers are good at the kinds of tasks that require left-brain intelligence, i.e. numbers and linear reasoning. They're just about useless at taking a lot of disparate and apparently unconnected facts and make a working hypothesis of it, i.e. right-brain functions which are more parallel in nature. If we ever get quantum processing to work on a large scale, that may change. Computers are just about useless at understanding language, for example. That's why there'll be work for translators like me for a long time to come.

7th December 2007, 01:41 AM	#22 (permalink)
Lith Oops Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: USA: Posts: 714	Re: Will computers eventually outsmart people? Computers can be programmed to mimic human brain functions, pattern recognitions, etc. Yahoo sends spiders around the web to find info, cookies in your computer tag what you like and don't like and offer suggestions (via advertising) that they think you might like. Hell, my cousin has a camera that can focus on a face. Computers can, to a degree, master language and recognize it when you scan a sheet into the computer. But it all depends on what we program it to do. Though give it enough time, and a computer can likely tell you more about yourself than you'll be comfortable hearing, because they can track such huge amounts of data without the limits of the mind and body. And it's only a matter of time until computers take over the world, or until a handful of people take over the world with these computers, because foresight in the face of new technology isn't one of humanity's assets.

10th December 2007, 01:40 AM	#23 (permalink)
Stormflame The Prolific Warrior Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 201	Re: Will computers eventually outsmart people? I think the whole idea of the movie Terminator is too far. If a computer gets too smart, what do you do!? Pull the plug... But, I must think all of the sudden...hmm...could we shut down the internet if we tried. It is almost a living breathing thing....hmmm....

14th December 2007, 02:21 AM	#24 (permalink)
Dave Wherever I Am, I'm There Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Greater London Posts: 13,781 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Will computers eventually outsmart people? Well one progam, at least, has been outsmarting people! It is called Cyberlover and it has been fooling visitors to Russian chatrooms and gaining some very personal information from them. These links have more: The oldest profession combined with the newest technology \| Technology \| The Guardian Russian computer program fakes chatroom flirting \| Technology \| Reuters Newsvine - Slutbot aces Turing Test* Warning sounded over CyberLover :: Hack In The Box :: Keeping Knowledge Free Warning sounded over 'flirting robots' \| Beyond Binary - A blog by Ina Fried - CNET News.com

14th December 2007, 04:26 PM	#26 (permalink)
Ursa major Bearly Believable Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: UK: ENGLAND: Posts: 12,059	Re: Will computers eventually outsmart people? Does it give itself away by complaining about all the diodes down its side aching when you suggest an early night?

14th December 2007, 08:03 PM	#29 (permalink)
Marky Lazer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Netherlands Posts: 2,879	Re: Will computers eventually outsmart people? Aren't computers outsmarting most people already? Lemme, rephrase that even! Aren't sand grains outsmarting most people already?

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