Opinions about Manuscript Assessment Agencies

[Havlen]

I know everyone goes into their first book thinking they'll hit the ball out of the park or, at least, come out the other side with a publishable manuscript, but a 'win' in my opinion is: (1) Learning how to write a book and (2) Learning how YOU write a book.

The second one is one thing that I think some writers aren't aware of, even experts. The writing process is different for each person, and the key is to find what works for you and go with it.

For example, I've found that I write best with a light outline (really more of a 3-4 page synopsis) and no major background. I like to stay loose and allow myself to get off the reservation if I feel it in the writing, so sometimes my first draft is far different than the outline.

Because of this, my second draft is a story and character draft where I fix the issues that sprout up because of not doing a lot of prep work -- characters flesh themselves out through the process of writing the first draft, so I have to go back and give them that character in the first part of the book, and the story can sometimes change, so I have to make the first part jive with those changes.

And while this works for me, it may be a very wrong approach for others. If you've figured out how to best go about the process of writing, I think you can call your first book a success. If it gets picked up -- that's bonus time.

[SJAB]

Originally Posted by Meadowhawk

. Over editing, or too many rewrites based on outside feedback can cause you to lose your voice in the storytelling.

Been there, done that, got the T shirt, as they say. Took me three novels before I had the courage to say in a critique group, thanks, but I am keeping those first two hundred words. I like them, my gut tells me they are right, and they set the scene.

[Anne Lyle]

My rule of thumb with critiques is, if one or maybe two people say "I don't like/get this", I ignore that particular comment - otherwise you end up with a bland, dumbed-down book that pleases no-one. If on the other hand most people say "WTF!!!", then it needs fixing!

Luckily I belong to a group where we all know one another well enough to be fairly tough on the critique front but in a friendly, constructive way. Sure, sometimes it hurts to have your favourite bits dissected and found wanting, but it's good skin-toughening practice for the big bad world of professional publishing.

[Tirellan]

Been there - done that ,with the best sf/f group in London

Then I went to John Jarrold - different level all together

It cost - well worth it

[Knulp]

I've actually been talking to John and will be sending him the manuscript shortly. I view it as an investment in my career...

[Ian Whates]

I have the advantage of belonging to the Northampton SF Writers Group (and the honour of being its vice chair), which is chaired by the author Ian Watson -- who has a 1st Class Honours degree in English from Balliol College, Oxford, has taught English at university level in Japan, Tanzania and the UK, has some 44 genre books to his credit and over 200 published short stories.

Having excelled at English throughout my schooling, I thought I knew almost all there was to know about the language until I joined the writers group. Ian is not the only member whose critiques and comments have helped my writing enormously, and I would not have achieved half of what I have without their input... and it's free! (Well, £10.00 per annum if we're being pernickity.)

[John Jarrold]

Originally Posted by Knulp

Cornerstones sounds good. I was also thinking about The Writers Workshop. I would of course I'd like to talk to John Jarrold, but he sounds a bit tied up at the moment!

Nick

You're welcome to talk to me now, Nick! Here, or by e-mail: j.jarrold@btinternet.com

[buskydudd]

Okay, at the risk of sounding like a complete evacuation-hole (you know what I mean), all I have to say is this:

do NOT give your material to a script doctor who charges money. There may be some good souls in this business, they might even help you whip your material into Nobel prize-winning shape, they may do extravagantly splendiferously wonderful things for you as a developing writer, things that even Shakespeare would have envied, but most are evil hacks who prey on the hopes of the naive and inexperienced, and almost NOBODY who does this can guarantee you publication, however cleverly they may dance around this point (your odds of wining the trillion-dollar lottery are better).

all necessary and appropriate apologies to john jarrold, whom i confess i do not know, though i've heard his name. hopefully, he is one of the honest men. if so, all power to him.

that being said, my experience is that most of the things these "assessor" people can do (the BEST of them, that is) can be had from any decent writing workshop (or series of workshops). i have worked with and known some of the best talents writing today, and can honestly say that the best advice can be had for free. can john jarrold do better than Robert Bly or William Gass with a spare half-hour at the end of a conference? or Christopher Hitchens? or (and this was pure luck) Umberto Eco? well, perhaps. that'd be a sight i'd truly like to see. but just buy Christopher Hitchens a drink and ply him with a few questions about fine writing (and for god's sake don't annoy him)...you'll find out what i mean.

you can also get a similar benefit from merely passing your material to a few intelligent, like-minded, half-literate friends. ANYTHING else. the books written by John Gardner on the craft and art of writing are far cheaper. they will likely be the best books on writing you will ever purchase. an invaluable resource. a close second is anything by Jane Burroway.

i've got too many years in most aspects of this business to stand by and watch another writer get suckered. it makes me angry to see it happen time and time again. AAARGH...do you have any idea what it's like to see a promising student throw good money away at this sort of thing? absolutely disheartening. and they always get burned. one chap recently paid two-hundred bucks to get back one PARAGRAPH of "critique." ONE PARAGRAPH. Jesus. was that a good investment, or what?? what did that student learn? not to be a sucker. that's about it. and the real kick in the arse?...it wasn't even a good paragraph. contained nothing of value. a complete snow-job.

there are sooooo many vultures out there. so watch out, that's all i can say. you'll save yourself hundreds of pounds or dollars or yen or rubles or yap wheelie boulders if you think about ANY OTHER WAY TO GET YOUR MATERIAL DECENTLY CRITIQUED. ESPECIALLY AVOID "AGENTS" WHO REQUIRE A READING FEE. think about it. these con-men never have to actually SELL a manuscript as long as they collect enough of these fees. reading fees are the biggest, most garish alarm-bell you will ever hear. it is the sure-fire tip-off. stay away from those particular bastards at all costs.

and no, this is not a back-handed pitch for my sucking anybody into submitting their material to me, for a small hidden fee halfway down the pipe. i do not do that. i remain anonymous on these sites, never promote my own stuff, and never try to con anybody into some pay-for-hire "manuscript assesment" nonsense. as i said, i've been in the business quite awhile, have a decent income as an English literature and writing teacher, and i have many cautionary tales to tell about the shadier end of this business. you are all far better off getting into a decent workshop, or finding a like-minded group of writers (at the cafe or on the internet, or both), than you are submitting your material to some crook who will charge you through the nose for a half-assed assesment.

my advice is, just stay away. for every honest person you find in this "manuscript assesment" business, five-hundred will rip you off. blood, sweat, and tears (and the feedback of a few intelligent companions) are the truest tokens to pay on your way to becoming a decent writer.

hemingway had a good editor...with luck, so will you. and by the way, the editor didn't charge a cent. he made his money when hemingway sold a story.

[ctg]

Originally Posted by buskydudd

Okay, at the risk of sounding like a complete evacuation-hole (you know what I mean), all I have to say is this:

do NOT give your material to a script doctor who charges money. There may be some good souls in this business, they might even help you whip your material into Nobel prize-winning shape, they may do extravagantly splendiferously wonderful things for you as a developing writer, things that even Shakespeare would have envied, but most are evil hacks who prey on the hopes of the naive and inexperienced, and NOBODY who does this can guarantee you publication, however cleverly they may dance around this point.

all necessary and appropriate apologies to john jarrold, whom i confess i do not know. hopefully, he is one of the honest men. if so, all power to him.

If you would had used a bit of time to do the research, then you would have found that Mister Jarrold credits are good. He express his opinions, and he is very honest on what he says. I got more then one paragraph of critique out from him, when writer workshop people were giving offensive critique before they got manuscript in their hands. I don't even want to begin with the other editors (who were not qualified on the SF/F field). Therefore, I recommend any aspiring writers to do their research on the wide field of the editors, and choosing the best that they can afford to get (yes, Editors are people and they need to eat/pay their mortgages).

but just buy Christopher Hitchens a drink and ply him with a few questions (and for god's sake don't annoy him)...you'll find out what i mean.

If an author cannot ask questions, then it really isn't worth of wasting time with someone who in slightest whiff of wrong question explodes on authors face.

hemingway had a good editor...with luck, so will you. and by the way, the editor didn't charge a cent. he made his money when hemingway sold a story.

That was then, now is now, times are different.

[Knulp]

Hi,

Well...

I'm sure that there are a lot of sharks out there and I agree that people need to go into something like this with their eyes open. Hence the reason for my original post...

However, I can hand on heart say that John Jarrold is one of the good guys. My experience of working with him has been excellent and also very enlightening. He is an excellent editor and his ability to help an author hone a manuscript, is money very well spent in my opinion.

Of course I have other routes for feedback, including what I call my focus group! As I've written a YA novel, one of my fiercest and most useful critics has been my thirteen year old son. If you want somebody to tell you it as it is, ask a teenager!

For me the combination of professional and informed amateur opinion has been excellent. Needless to say, I can't speak highly enough of John.

Right, back to that second novel.

Regards,

Nick

[Havlen]

Originally Posted by buskydudd

Okay, at the risk of sounding like a complete evacuation-hole (you know what I mean), all I have to say is this:

I understand your sentiment, but absolutes are usually incorrect. Sure, there are people out there disguised as editors who prey on writers. But that doesn't mean writers shouldn't use editors. After all, there are people out there scamming writers disguised as agents and publishers as well, should we avoid agents and publishers?

Also, asking a writer or an intelligent and literate friend for advice or opinions is different from asking an editor. Editing and writing are two different skills. True, good writers develop editing skills, but you can become a great a well-known writer without being a great -- or even good -- editor.

[John Jarrold]

I don't feel I should comment too much since - as I have said here previously - anyone considering editorial help should think long and hard before spending their money, and investigate whoever they are dealing with. And it certainly will not be right for everyone. I entirely agree that "one paragraph" of critique is not reasonable - nor is it what I do. I usually supply around two to three full pages of general thoughts about the book, taking in the plotlines, characters, dialogue, point-of-view and other matters - as well as giving the author an idea of how commercial publishing actually works, day-to-day. Then I make around six to eight A4 pages of specific notes, relating to a page, paragraph or line.

In some cases, the book requires a full line-edit rather than reams of notes, in which case - after discussion with the author - I will go through every page line by line, making suggested cuts, additions and alterations on the page. As you can imagine, this is not a fast or easy job on a 100,000-word novel! And those authors also receive editorial thoughts.

As I said, it's a very personal matter, and I'm absolutely certain there are sharks out there. Don't do it unless you are positive it suits you personally.

[Dean F. Wilson]

Effectively, do the kind of research you'd do (or should do) before sending a book to an agent or publisher (there are scam agencies and vanity publishers out there too, not just script doctors). In the end, if you're willing to do the hard work of writing a 100,000+ document (not to mention the research, plotting, rewriting, editing, etc. that this ensues), then isn't a few hours research on who you give that to (and potentially pay money to [not in the case of agencies or publishers, of course]) a worthy endeavour?

That said, I find writing easier than looking for an agency or publishers

-D

[Havlen]

Looking for an agent or publisher really isn't all that hard in this date and time. It's getting them to look back that's a bit tough

[SJAB]

Originally Posted by Havlen

. It's getting them to look back that's a bit tough

I would say near impossible, but fun trying!