Cliches.....are they really all that bad?

[Giovanna Clairval]

Plot and story are often confused.

The story is “Astronaut meets monster, tries to kill it but discovers it is a sentient being and, together, they open a restaurant” (in so few words, this is called a “pitch”; the story is more detailed).

The plot is the way the writer deals with the encounter, the exchanges, the different events that bring the astronaut to realise that Monster understands Anglish, and the final decision to become partners.

There's a limited number of stories (with several variants), but the plot, the series of incidents that carry the story forward, is what makes the originality of a novel (apart form style and characters, that is).

Three definitions and a link to a very useful multi-lingual site full of information:

http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/plot



WordReference (online dictionary)

1 plot, secret plan, game
a secret scheme to do something (especially something underhand or illegal); "they concocted a plot to discredit the governor"; "I saw through his little game from the start" Category Tree:
2 plot
the story that is told in a novel or play or movie etc.; "the characters were well drawn but the plot was banal"


The Merriam-Webster online open dictionary


Plot
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Old English
Date:
before 12th century
1 a: a small area of planted ground <a vegetable plot> b: a small piece of land in a cemetery c: a measured piece of land : lot
2: ground plan, plat
3: the plan or main story (as of a movie or literary work)
4[perhaps back-formation from complot] : a secret plan for accomplishing a usually evil or unlawful end : intrigue5: a graphic representation (as a chart)
— plot·less\-ləs\ adjective
— plot·less·ness noun


Websters-online-dictionaries (which is not the Merriam-Webster)

Plot

Noun

1. A secret scheme to do something (especially something underhand or illegal); "they concocted a plot to discredit the governor".
2. A small area of ground covered by specific vegetation; "a bean plot"; "a cabbage patch"; "a briar patch".
3. The story that is told in a novel or play or movie etc.; "the characters were well drawn but the plot was banal".
4. A chart or map showing the movements or progress of an object.
Verb

1. Plan secretly, usually something illegal; "They plotted the overthrow fo the government".
2. Make a schematic or technical drawing of; make a diagram of.
3. Make a plat of; "Plat the town".
Source: WordNet 1.7.1 Copyright © 2001 by Princeton University. All rights reserved.

Plot in literature, theater, movies

According to Aristotle's Poetics, a plot in literature is "the arrangement of incidents" that (ideally) each follow plausibly from the other. The plot is like the chalk outline that guides the painter's brush. An example of the type of plot which follows these sorts of lines is the linear plot of development to be discerned within the pages of a bildungsroman novel.
Aristotle notes that a string of unconnected speeches, no matter how well-executed, will not have as much emotional impact as a series of tightly connected speeches delivered by imperfect speakers.
The concept of plot and the associated concept of construction of plot, emplotment, has of course developed considerably since Aristotle made these insightful observations. The episodic narrative tradition which Aristotle indicates has systematically been subverted over the intervening years, to the extent that the concept of beginning, middle, end are merely regarded as a conventional device when no other is to hand.
This is particularly true in the cinematic tradition where the folding and reversal of episodic narrative is now a commonplace. Moreover, many writers and film directors, particularly those with a proclivity for the Modernist or other subsequent and derivative movements which emerged during or after the early 20th century seem more concerned that plot is an encumbrance to their artistic medium than an assistance.

[Peter Graham]

Hi GC

You might be right, but I've always seen characterisation, dialogue and the rest of it as story rather than plot. Storytellers wove imagery and wordplay into their basic material. They weren't called Plot-tellers for a very good reason! But who am I to argue with the authoritative opinions of an online dictionary?

Whichever way round it is, it probably doesn't make much difference to the discussion - we all know what we're talking about and I think that's what is most important.

..and I could find plenty of dictionaries which could tell us that "Anglish" should be spelt "English".....

I don't know how to do those little smiley faces that people use to show that they are speaking in jest, but just assume there is one here!

Regards,

Peter

[Giovanna Clairval]

Hi, Peter,

How are you, my friend?

Characterisation and dialogue are part of the plot inasmuch as one considers the way they are placed in the chain of events; otherwise, they are part of the story (subtle distinction, but a distinction anyway).

And I said that the plot is what makes the originality of a novel apart from style and characterisation--meaning, with this last word, the character building as a process, but also its actual concretisation (which can be obtained with different devices: dialogue, description, etc.), regardless of the way the different scenes fit in the "arrangement of incidents", which is "plot".

An authour may use sparkling style, and his characterisation may be very effective, and yet she can concoct a confused plot. A few of my favourite authors did this, sometimes, and that didn't prevent me from enjoying the read.

So, I do agree with you when you say that readers don't read for the plot but for the pleasure they can find in the way the story (the idea) is treated: ambience, characters, dialogues, and (as most of we Chronics do) style.

[Peter Graham]

Hi GC,

I'm well. And you?

Fair enough on the definitions point! Honours even and all that!

Now it's just a question of writing that multi-million blockbuster. Or, at least, convincing people that it is already written and all they need do is publish it.....

Regards,

Peter

[RodneyMcKay]

It all really depends on what you as the writer feel comfortable writing

[Giovanna Clairval]

Hi, Peter,

I'm very well, but trasportation has become chimeric in Paris.

And, concerning the multi-million blockbuster, you know, like other valiant Chronics here , I seek critical acclaim, not celebrity...

[Deathpool]

I was in a school the taught Spanish, but gave up. Too complicated and takes too much time. I decided I had more important things to learn.

[lin robinson]

I would say that if you try to define the difference between the "elements that define a literary genre" and "cliches" you'd better bring a lunch.

[Lith]

No lunch needed. If it's well done, it's an archetype, if it's badly done, it's a stereotype.

Which is about as close to a concrete definition as it's possible to get in this business. So much only doesn't work until it does.

[Giovanna Clairval]

Stereotypes. bad; archetypes, good, sehr gut.

The archetypes are models, original ideas from which the real things procede in our sensible (meaning "that can be experienced through the senses") world, according to Plato.

But we use this term today in its psychological meaning, as it was introduced by Carl Gustav Jung.

And this definition is interesting for us because it introduces the concept of collective unconscious.


"The collective unconscious is a part of the psyche which can be negatively distinguished from a personal unconscious by the fact that is does not, like the latter, owe its existence to personal experience and consequently is not a personal acquisition. While the personal unconscious is made up essentially of contents which have at one time been conscious, but which have disappeared from consciousness through having been forgotten or repressed, the contents of the collective unconscious have never been in consciousness, and therefore have never been individually acquired but owe their existence exclusively to heredity. Whereas the personal unconscious consists for the most part of complexes, the content of the collective unconscious is made up essentially of archetypes.

"The concept of the archetype, which is an indispensable correlate to the idea of the collective unconscious, indicates the existence of definite forms in the psyche which seem to be present always and everywhere. Mythological research calls them "motifs"; in the psychology of primitives they correspond to Levy-Bruhl's concept of "representations collectives," and in the field of comparative religion they have been defined by Hubert and Mauss as "categories of the imagination." Adolf Bastian long ago called them "elementary" or "primordial thoughts." From these references, it should be clear enough that my idea of the archetype -- literally a pre-existent form -- does not stand alone, but is something that is recognized and named in other fields of knowledge.

"My thesis, then, is as follows: In addition to our immediate consciousness, which is of a thoroughly personal nature and which we believe to be the only empirical psyche (even if we tack on the personal unconscious as an appendix), there exists a second psychic system of a collective, universal, and impersonal nature which is identical in all individuals. This collective unconscious does not develop individually, but is inherited. It consists of pre-existent forms, the archetypes, which can only become conscious secondarily and which give definite form to certain psychic contents."

From "The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious", Collected Works, Vol. 9.i, pars. 87-110. Lecture by C.G. Jung (1936)

So, every character we can come up with is rooted in the collective unconscious, and when we treat it as a cardboard character, it comes in stereo

[j. d. worthington]

And, quite frankly, the whole thing can be reduced to the fact that "cliché" is simply a derogatory term (meaning it has no positive associations or resonances in its accepted usage), just as "stereotype" is. "Archetype", on the other hand, is a more positive term, indicating something with deep psychological/emotional resonance, cultural roots, and an inexhaustible font of vital significance.

[lin robinson]

That vital significance stuff always exhausts me, for one.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by lin robinson

That vital significance stuff always exhausts me, for one.

LOL... Hmmm, perhaps a rephrase might be in order, then? Shall we say "a continuing relevance to the basic structure of our nature"?

[lin robinson]

Sounds like a cliche to me. :-)

[RodneyMcKay]

Oh my gosh... the humour... the laughter... ha ha ha