Some thoughts on the direction Fantasy seems to be heading -- present and future.

[GOLLUM]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

Well, Gollum, my thinking on this is that there is a difference between stories which contain elements that may be regarded as allegorical, and that work as allegory, and novels that are themselves allegorical, in terms of the plot and characters.

That may be what that work is alluding to as well w.r.t. Williams.

It sounds as if Williams was a fairly major player in the early formation of the Fantasy Genre as we know it today. I think I'll need to go back and revisit this author to better understand this discussion. Anyone care to suggest a reading list?

[j. d. worthington]

To clarify: No, Williams did not write what is often called "simple allegory" -- that is, a point-for-point allegory; rather, he wrote stories that were heavily allegorical on a multitude of layers, yet worked very well as story... much like the best of Hawthorne, Melville, Poe, etc. This (to me, at any rate) goes far beyond having allegorical elements and much more like your categorization of things that work as allegory, except that (from what I understand) Williams was quite consciously intending allegorical readings of his works as well. (I could be mistaken on this, as I've not read the pieces on Williams in about 3 decades, but I recall this striking me at the time.)

As for his sense of wonder, I'd agree with that; this is something that seems to have run strongly in that generation of fantaisistes. Oddly, I'd say that the sense of disillusionment and tragedy was at least as great with those who saw the horrors of the first World War as it is with today's generation of writers, but somehow they seem to have (by and large) avoided the despairing sense of cynicism so prevalent today....

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by GOLLUM

It sounds as if Williams was a fairly major player in the early formation of the Fantasy Genre as we know it today. I think I'll need to go back and revisit this author to better understand this discussion. Anyone care to suggest a reading list?

I wouldn't say that he was a major player, but I think he had some influence. Maybe it would be a different genre today if he had had more.

My favorites are The Greater Trumps and War in Heaven, so I would suggest them. I would not recommend All Hallows Eve, simply because I didn't find the story or the characters very engaging. On the other hand, JD may come back and give us some good reasons why it's a very significant work.

[Lith]

Where has this wonderful thread been hiding?

Above, all young people seem not to believe or care, and that's even sadder. You and I remember well how angry so many members of our own generation were back in the 60's and early 70's; and some of it was misplaced and some of it based on ignorance and some of it was entirely justified; but it was an anger that had much in it of compassion, and a belief that it was possible, and indeed imperative, for groups and individuals to become a force for positive change.

I think this is a fairly inescapable result of the sixties. As much as that generation had hope in creating a new world, it tore down a lot of cultural institutions and assumptions, and as it failed, it left our world half torn up. The political assassinations, the growing problems with drugs, the unending and confusing Vietnam war, the Cold War... by the time I graduated from high school, 2/3 of the students came from divorced families, making broken promises the norm rather than the exception. We grew up in a completely different world, socially if not materially. There's also an element of a rebellion against rebellion; the sixties generation rebelled against the order of their parents, and so the younger generation rebelled against the only thing their parents' generation had left; a hollowed-out sense of hope. Furthermore, I think this country (and a lot of the world, really) has been on a high since WW2, and we've been gradually coming down off of it.

I do get a little frustrated with the cynicism, because a lot of it rings a little hollow. I notice it more in the music than in fantasy, but that's probably because I stick mostly to dead authors. It's almost like a discussion among the young as to how we would handle such trials and tribulations, were they to happen again. But after a while, you just want to grab them and shake them out of their self-pity and tell them to get on with it; that life isn't that bad, that their life isn't that bad. (Fanfiction is particularly bad- 2/3 of it is self-indulgent angst and trauma for its own sake-blech!)

The above's hardly all-inclusive of what's been happening in society, but then all-inclusive is pretty much impossible; there's so much happening at any given time. As has been said, these things are somewhat cyclical.

If I ever get published, I will most certainly be helping it to pass.

[Enchantedfire7]

I really don't know where I stand. I used to be optimistic, yet now I'm more of a pessimist. I have alot of psychological problems, severe OCD, and depression (which I believe is brought on because of OCD). This winter has been the hardest winter of my life. I lost will and feeling for awhile and never told anyone, which was frightening me, the fact that I told no one. But I got through it. Though I still see many things in a negative light. What keeps me going is my God, my wife Melissa, even our animals (I love dogs) and my family. Normally I'm a very submissive person, to everyone, friends and all. Even to strangers. That is until I got sick, becoming agressive and slow to patience among those who lash out at me or are just plain A**H****.

As far as my novel goes, well I'm not sure how to catorgize it. The story is Dark with lots of violence and blood shed reflecting reality. Yet there is also hope, faith, love, courage and uplifting moments. Sacrifice, compassion and forgiveness. The story also reflects Faith, doing what is right and what must be done in order to survive, no matter how hard or terrible the conflict may be.

Like an absolute moron (the pessimist in me is now talking) I use to dream of becoming published, yet I know it most likely won't happen. Unless I publish it myself, which I am. Though that doesn't matter neither because I doubt anyone would enjoy my story: "The Guardian of the Seventh Realm." I'm a nobody writer, not even a writer, just a guy who wrote (or is writting) a story.

I'm not trying to be original, or create something "different." I'm just writing a story reflecting my feelings/thoughts, demons, trials, hopes and over all, my journey in life. For life is a journey. And at times so hard, however there are many beautiful things worth "fighting" for. So never shall I give up.

I probaly have been going on and on and am totally off this entire subject to begin with. I apologize if i have. Just got caught up in the moment about Optimisim and Pessimism.

Hope I didn't depress anyone

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Enchantedfire7

I really don't know where I stand. I used to be optimistic, yet now I'm more of a pessimist. I have alot of psychological problems, severe OCD, and depression (with I believe it brought on because of OCD). This winter has been the hardest winter of my life. I lost will and feeling for awhile and never told anyone, which was frightening me, the fact that I told no one. But I got through it. Though I still see many things in a negative light. What keeps me going is my God, my wife Melissa, even our animals (I love dogs) and my family. Normally I'm a very submissive person, to everyone, friends and all. Even to strangers. That is until I got sick, becoming agressive and slow to patience among those who lash out at me or are just plain A**H****.

As far as my novel goes, well I'm not sure how to catorgize it. The story is Dark with lots of violence and blood shed reflecting reality. Yet there is also hope, faith, love, courage and uplifting moments. Sacrifice, compassion and forgiveness. The story also reflects Faith, doing what is right and what must be done in order to survive, no matter how hard or terrible the conflict may be.

Like an absolute moron (the pessimist in me is now talking) I use to dream of becoming published, yet I know it most likely won't happen. Unless I publish it myself, which I am. Though that doesn't matter neither because I doubt anyone would enjoy my story: "The Guardian of the Seventh Realm." I'm a nobody writer, not even a writer, just a guy who wrote (or is writting) a story.

I'm not trying to be original, or create something "different." I'm just writing a story reflecting my feelings/thoughts, demons, trials, hopes and over all, my journey in life. For life is a journey. And at times so hard, however there are many beautiful things worth "fighting" for. So never shall I give up.

I probaly have been going on and on and am totally off this entire subject to begin with. I apologize if i have. Just got caught up in the moment about Optimisim and Pessimism.

Hope I didn't depress anyone

Well, you certainly didn't depress me. Quite the opposite. For someone who has been going through this to still hold onto the idea that there are things worth the struggle, and to be willing to put it on paper, and maybe even see that one see the light of day in print, with (if I'm reading your post aright) some hope to maybe instill a little of that determination to see it through in others... I see that as a certain kind of courage....

[Enchantedfire7]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

Well, you certainly didn't depress me. Quite the opposite. For someone who has been going through this to still hold onto the idea that there are things worth the struggle, and to be willing to put it on paper, and maybe even see that one see the light of day in print, with (if I'm reading your post aright) some hope to maybe instill a little of that determination to see it through in others... I see that as a certain kind of courage....

Thanks man, those were encouraging words.

[Lith]

Like an absolute moron (the pessimist in me is now talking) I use to dream of becoming published, yet I know it most likely won't happen. Unless I publish it myself, which I am. Though that doesn't matter neither because I doubt anyone would enjoy my story: "The Guardian of the Seventh Realm." I'm a nobody writer, not even a writer, just a guy who wrote (or is writting) a story.

Now that you KNOW you won't be published, you are free to write whatever you want. It can be a wonderfully freeing thing. And the paradox is that if you write what you want, I mean exactly what you want, what you think, your work starts to become more accessible to others, because you begin to strip off those layers of public expectation. Or at least that's how it works for me.

You wouldn't happen to be a fan of GK Chesterton, would you? If not, give him a whirl. He got me through a lot of rough times. The rough times still come and go, but not as bad as they used to be. And if you can find CS Lewis's book on George MacDonald, he has excerpted a lot of MacDonald's passages on dryness of spirit, which I also found to be a great help.

And it wouldn't be much of a triumph if it wasn't much of a trial, would it?

[Enchantedfire7]

You wouldn't happen to be a fan of GK Chesterton, would you? If not, give him a whirl. He got me through a lot of rough times. The rough times still come and go, but not as bad as they used to be. And if you can find CS Lewis's book on George MacDonald, he has excerpted a lot of MacDonald's passages on dryness of spirit, which I also found to be a great help.

And it wouldn't be much of a triumph if it wasn't much of a trial, would it?[/quote]

I love C.S.Lewis, his books on Fantasy, especially "The Horse and His Boy" and "Perelandra," as well as his theology books. But I've never read any G.K.Chesterton. I've heard lots of great things about him though and will check out his writings. Thanks.

[The Procrastinator]

Thoughts on "reality" - brought on by the idea that graphic and oft-used violence or cruelty is more "real" in some way than more positive things... Ask somebody about the real world these days and it will probably involve urban life of some sort, money, noise, pollution, etc etc. Answers won't always be negative of course but they will often be centred on human/human concerns. One thing that has changed over time is that more and more of us are living in cities or large urban environments and our lives tend to revolve around exclusively human things - I wonder if this change is related to the change spoken of above.

Most people don't live in the midst of beauty anymore. They find beauty where they can, for sure, but its a different thing not to have to seek out clean air, clear skies, sights and sounds that are pleasing and can be enjoyed without having to make an effort. In every city you have to deliberately ignore aspects of your environment - the feel of the air on your pores - the harsh unyielding feel of concrete - angles that slice up the space around you into neat and restrictive parcels and blockages - the constant sound and smell of traffic - the constant presence of too many other people, none of whom you know. Most people can become accustomed to this and some thrive on it - but for many its just something to be endured or not thought about. We are our own predator and our own prey - most people will never experience that kind of interaction with another kind of animal. We are cut off from the natural world, cocooned in our little manmade shells - a goodly proportion of us even live and work in air-conditioning. Weather is not life, its an inconvenience or something nice out the window, only to be enjoyed on weekends.

I could go on and on forever but its raining gently here on my little tin roof, and that always makes me sleepy, especially in winter, here in my warm cocoon...so I'll just toss out those half-formed thoughts for general digestion.

[BookStop]

I could go on and on forever but its raining gently here on my little tin roof, and that always makes me sleepy, especially in winter, here in my warm cocoon

And you say 'most people don't live in the midst of beauty'.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by The Procrastinator

In every city you have to deliberately ignore aspects of your environment - the feel of the air on your pores - the harsh unyielding feel of concrete - angles that slice up the space around you into neat and restrictive parcels and blockages - the constant sound and smell of traffic - the constant presence of too many other people, none of whom you know. Most people can become accustomed to this and some thrive on it - but for many its just something to be endured or not thought about.

But not everyone does live in the city, and many who do wouldn't move if you paid them.

I don't know what it's like in Australia, but in this country around every major city there are vast suburbs. You can work in the city and still have a place to go away from the concrete and angles and sounds of traffic and pressure of humanity. Even if you're poor and live in an apartment, you can walk down the street and see grass and gardens and maybe not pass another person for half an hour (more if you take your walk in the early morning or early evening).

Even in the city there are parks and museums and other places where you can find beauty. In fact, it's the convenience of such things that keep many people in the city.

It's popular now to dwell on the negative -- even, in many cases, to seek out the ugly and the frantic and the soul-deadening. We don't have to live that way. And we don't have to think that way either, but again, many go looking for books, movies, games, and the companionship of people who re-enforce and validate that kind of thinking.

And I don't say that we should ignore the horrible things in life, but neither should we exaggerate them or glorify them or take a perverse pleasure in them. There is more to life than that, and we need to be reminded. We need more balance.

[The Procrastinator]

I think I define city differently than you, T. Suburbs count, in my book. (I know the suburbs can be pleasant or at least OK, btw). Do you feel there is no connection between urbanisation (and suburbanisation) and the "decline of the wonderful"? I feel that there might be - I could be wrong of course. I haven't thought properly about it yet. My feeling is that the imbalance you speak of is exacerbated by the "de-natured" forms of our modern lives. Grass and parks and trees and gardens are great but they are "tame", if you understand me - they are nature expressed through a human filter, not nature herself. Nature says something to us (maybe not all of us) at a subliminal level - she built us after all and we are made to be in her - and there is something satisfying about the forms of chaos, the unpredictability, the complexity and the cruelty of the natural world that goes far beyond the aesthetic. Perhaps you could say she puts you in your place - and maybe there's a lot of people these days who don't know what that place is. And before someone gets out the flamethrower, I am not speaking literally about the above.

Bother, I am running out of time - we're having power issues out here (on the farm) so my computer time is limited at present. Will come back when I can and rave on some more - I'm not explaining well and must dash.

[svalbard]

This is an interesting topic for debate and something I have pondered over for many years. I can only go on how I have changed in my literary tastes in fantasy. First of all there was Tolkien and his two greatest works, The Hobbit and The Fellowship of the Ring. He created a fantastical world that hinted at the myths of our own past and yet you knew you were in a different world, where in the end the Light would win through. You took joy from that, at least I did anyway. Tolkien's creation has being expounded upon by other writers.

Some have done this to some success. I would say that authors such as George R.R. Martin, Tad Williams and Steven Erikson are bright examples of this. They ground their worlds in a quasi-medieval setting, with all the grime and horror of those times. At the same time certain characters will rise above the quagmire of filth to strike a blow for what we as readers and lovers of fantasy need. Truth and right.

I will appologise(sp) for the short reply, but I am tired and need some sleep. I will come back and add some more to this later.