A Game of Thrones

[viZion]

Sorry for the double post but I just finished Eddard XV where Varys comes to him in his dungeon cell. A few things stood out for me. First, boar or not, Robert was never coming back from that hunting trip alive. Only his extraordinary constitution kept him alive long enough to return to King's Landing in the first place. Anyway, here's the quote:

The eunuch shrugged. "A hunter lives a perilous life. If the boar had not done for Robert, it would have been a fall from a horse, the bite of a wood adder, an arrow gone astray..."

So maybe Cersei got lucky that the boar killed Robert but she had already been creating her own luck in a myriad of different ways. He was a dead man the moment he left on his hunting trip.

Also, you guys might find this stupid but it appears the Targaryens are still in the castle.

Varys: "Rhaenys was a child, too. Prince Rhaegar's daughter. A precious little thing, younger than your girls. She had a small black kitten she called Balerion, did you know? I always wondered what happened to him."

Rhaenys' cat is, of course, none other than the black tomcat that Arya was chasing through the keep earlier in the book. The one the guards claim has been there as long as they can remember("Older than sin and twice as mean"). I just thought that was a nice little connection made by Martin as well as a possible bit of foreshadowing Daenerys' return.

[chopper]

Originally Posted by viZion

Rhaenys' cat is, of course, none other than the black tomcat that Arya was chasing through the keep earlier in the book.

Ah, nicely spotted, sir!

The devil is in the detail...

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Originally Posted by viZion

Oh well, I still think the writing there by Martin is just a shade bit sketchy and an overtly obvious way to get the wars that are the center of the series started. I wish it had happened different but what can you do? It's still my favorite series of all time and certainly the only I've ever bothered to read more than once. I look forward to future discussions with you all.

This is the part that I have a problem with.

For Ned it was completely in character to not wage war on children. In fact his going to Cersei was foreshadowed by his argument with Robert over Dany. Some people are made of different stuff than you and think differently. But to call the writing ham-fisted because you find something incongrous is not appropriate. Ill accept it was stupid to go to Cersei, but cleverly stupid on Martins part to have a character who would go.

There were so many other ways to kill of Ned at the hands of the Lannisters that Martin deliberately chose this one. So to imply he just kinda shrugged his shoulders and got on with the war seems silly.

As for "the Starks should be better at politics" angle....well I dont want to give away why Ned was Lord of Winterfell and not his older brother (or his father for that matter) but they have a long history of being nobler than was good for them.

Good catch on the cat Viz....the only bit of info I found on my reread was this passage in Danys first chapter...Ill cut out the parts that dont pertain...


"Yet sometimes Dany could picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her stories....Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved....Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes..."

Seems like an odd way to word things. Almost as if the woman Rhaegar loved and his lady-wife were two different people. He wasnt fighting for Elia at the Ruby Ford, she was miles away. In fact the war was started over a different woman entirely wasnt it?

It was all right there in front of us and we missed it....in the third chapter.

[Tysha]

I like the idea about the cat, but a 15 years old cat is quite old and should not be that hard to catch... Well, "has been there as long as they can remember" is quite convincing

viZion - This is the beauty of these books. You like this character and dislike that one, you agree with one and disagree with another, BUT, all of them are real! Even if you can't understand why a character makes a bad choice - the same thing happens in the real life - if you look around you will find a lot of people doing something that you never will, making bad choices because of a short temper, honor, or just a headache.
And about: "the Starks should be better at politics" Look at the real politics, if they can be bad at politics why should a Lord of some distant quiet place be good at King's Landing intrigues..?

[viZion]

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

As for "the Starks should be better at politics" angle....well I dont want to give away why Ned was Lord of Winterfell and not his older brother (or his father for that matter) but they have a long history of being nobler than was good for them.

What do you mean here? Just to remind you that this isn't my first time through the books. Unless this is a spoiler free thread (doesn't appear that way) feel free to spoil stuff that happens later on. I keep fearing that I'm going to miss something. It's hard to keep track of some things when he tells bits of the background story hundreds of pages apart. Already there are quite a few things I feel like I should know but I don't know if I just haven't reached the parts where they are revealed or if I just happened to miss it while reading.

For example, I think Lyanna was who the Kingsguard was protecting at the Tower of Joy? Where does Ashara Dayne fit into this? Is Jon really the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar? Eddard tells Catelyn, "He is my blood, and that is all you need know" when she asks Eddard who Jon's mother is. Kind of an odd way to word things. These are the kinds of questions I'm asking myself but I'm not sure if I should know the answers already or not. Probably a discussion for another thread anyway.

A little more on topic @ Aegon: I do believe the war was started over Lyanna but again it's one of those topics that Martin drops hints at hundreds of pages apart and it's hard to piece it together. Already I feel like I missed something or maybe he just hasn't revealed what I'm missing.

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by viZion

Is Jon really the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar? Eddard tells Catelyn, "He is my blood, and that is all you need know"... Probably a discussion for another thread anyway.

Do a little spelunking here and you'll find spoilers and postulations to no end.

Egg, great points on Sansa and Littlefinger. Littlefinger had been waiting for an opportunity to harm the Starks for fifteen years... what honorable man would have seen that one coming?

For the sake of argument, would not Sansa's betrayal still reflect upon Eddard since he was responsible for her training?

[viZion]

I tried the spelunking but the search here is terrible. Or I just suck at using it. Anyway, I'm pretty convinced that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. My only regret is that Catelyn doesn't "live" to see Jon revealed for what he truly is. I would love to see the look on her face after finding out what Ned did to keep his honor to his sister and that she really had no reason to hate Jon for all those years. Like many other people, I can't stand Catelyn.

[Rhaegal]

Originally Posted by viZion

So maybe Cersei got lucky that the boar killed Robert but she had already been creating her own luck in a myriad of different ways. He was a dead man the moment he left on his hunting trip.

The Varys quote is a good one i'll admit, but the uncertainty was the crux of my point. Sure a stray arrow might kill him or a boar if he had had too much to drink, but I would consider those chancy at best especially if you were trying to make it look like an accident and you would only likely get the one shot. The boar might have just broke his leg. Then Robert is rushed back to the maesters(and Ned) and the whole scheme is shot and Cersei loses a head.


Basically, there is something spectacularly wrong with what you would expect normal protections to be if killing the king is that easy. If it wasn't next to impossible, it at least should have been. I guess I just read it that by the time Ned got there, the whole thing was basically hopeless. All the schemers were already in their end game

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Brandon Stark and his father went south to demand the release of Lyanna Stark from an insane king. Thats not good politics. So one was horribly burned to death and the other had a choice between letting the burnee die or asphyxiating himself. Not a good decision to go south, but truth be told not an unnoble one.

Cersei apparently hatched more than one plan to kill Robert. Witness the melee Robert avoided at the Hands tourney. Apparently she manipulated Robert into that, so the boar was just a possibility that finally did Robert in. Not too far-fetched

The war was started over Lyanna....in a nutshell, Lyanna and Rhaegar rode off together after Lord Whets tourney. The two elder Starks went south believing shed been abducted and demanded her release, the mad king killed them and demanded Robert and Ned to show themselves in his court. Jon Arryn who was fostering the two at the time took up arms along with the Stark bannermen and Baratheons and went to war....theres more to it but thats the gist of it.

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by viZion

Like many other people, I can't stand Catelyn.

You say the most endearing things!

Welcome Rhaegal!

Robert's relationship to Cersei and the Lannisters was like that of a moth and a flame. Robert loved the shiny toys, the good food, the enless line of drinks, and the countless women ready to sleep with the king. Sooner or later the Lannisters would get him without much effort on their part.

Actually it was probably fairly hard work for Cersei to keep Jaime from killing Robert earlier.

[viZion]

According Varys when he visits Ned in the dungeon, it was extremely hard work keeping Robert alive for the past 15 years. Varys says that the only person he couldn't save Robert from was his friend, Eddard. Then Varys asks Eddard something like, "WTF were you thinking going to Cersei?" Something like that. Can everyone agree that that was the most bonehead move ever made?

Cersei herself certainly could have handled stealing the throne a lot better. I think her main mistakes are giving *too much* to her own house and its supporters. I mean, throw a bone or two to a few other great houses and she probably gets control of the entire kingdom. Even the Targaryens didn't completely shut out everyone else. You gotta keep people happy even though you rule them.

[Boaz]

It was boneheaded. But can you honestly say that you'd have done different. I'm not sure that I can. Eddard felt himself in a very strong position. He'd saved one child from Robert's wrath before... (If R+L=J, then Eddard hid Jon from Robert's revenge. We see how Robert is obsessed with killing Targs. Even though Jon is the son of Robert's true love, Robert would never be able to look at Jon without seeing the man who raped his betrothed, nor would he look at Jon without seeing a potential usurper.) Eddard thought he might be able to save more innocent children from Robert's mania.

I agree on Cersei. Cersei has the ambition, but not the skills to rule. We all know this. Her ambition got her to the top, but she'll never stay there. She is the Commodus of ASOIAF. "I am terribly vexed with you Alayaya. I'll let you live after you've been scourged, but I'll kill Tyrion. AM I NOT MERCIFUL?" So who will be her Maximus? Margaery, Dany, Tyrion, or Jaime?

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Here we go again....

On the battlefield (as was this between Cersei and Ned) compassion is sometimes misplaced, tis true. But never, and I do mean never, inherently wrong. Let me make this clear, Ned made a error in judgement...but it was one that was the core of Ned Stark and he should be praised for it and not condemned. I see how it led to his downfall, but at the end of the day this was Ned Stark making it and he quite frankly was of a different mettle than you or I. He is a foil that people should compare themselves to and be found wanting.

I think his story is important because he wasnt given time to learn from his mistakes. Honor and compassion are critical keys to the success of heroes in every story. Jon and Robb both share these traits, Robb only got to choose honor over practicality once. Jon chose practicality over honor and it haunts him to the current time.

How much do you think Ned would prefer being practical? By taking Renlys path he would have had to place an abomination on the throne (Joffrey)....one whom he would be forced to live with yet another lie and this one not made for love....but practicality. If he had taken the "practical" path he would have been forced to kill three children....three. And you know he would have done it himself.

"Mayhaps, if you look into a mans eyes and can not kill him....he doesnt deserve to die"

I just dont see Ned beheading Cersei, Joff, Tommen, and Myrcella. I just dont see it.

So the question becomes....if you were Ned, with all his foibles and "failings"....what would you have done?

[viZion]

Nah, I like Eddard but I'm not going to place him on a pedestal and say, "Man, I should really strive to be like this guy". Certainly he's of a different mettle but not necessarily the "correct" one. Not for me at least. Remember, he's dead. I certainly don't mind being found wanting compared to that.

Being honorable, noble, trying to save the children, etc does not excuse his mistakes, especially with Cersei. There's no way I'm going to praise him for the things he did. Ok, he saved those three children from Robert by doing what he did. How many hundreds of other innocent children did he kill by being one of the major catalysts for starting a war. You're supposed to sacrifice the lives of a few for the lives of the many not the other way around .

The whole situation was tragic but that's the way it goes. He still had a chance to make some things right if only Joffrey hadn't, uh, thwarted him. Now that I think about it, I think I'm going to call Joffrey lopping off Ned's head an even more boneheaded mistake than Ned going to Cersei. You just don't go around doing that to great lords; even Cersei knew that.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I dont know which point you are arguing.....that the character of Eddard is unbelievable and the writing of his character too formulaic or that he made his share of mistakes. Honestly I could accept the latter, just not the former.

Yes going to Cersei was not the best of moves. But was it wrong? No, because showing compassion is never wrong. Seriously it just isnt. Just because things turned out the way they did doesnt change that truism. (Waiting patiently for Boaz to chime in with "The road to hell is paved with good intentions").

I agree with you on all practical points, really I do. I would have grabbed the three children and lopped off their fricking heads, razed Lannisport to the ground, dressed Tyrion in motley, removed Jaimes manhood (and fed it to goats), and sold Cersei as a Free Cities concubine. The history books would have recorded Ned the First as a great and wise Hand who became King, because I (as Ned) would have had them written. Thankfully Ned is not like me...

To be honest, there are some things in life worth dying for, some parts of a person that are not worth compromising to live another day....you say you would rather be Ned than dead....thats acceptable because thats who you are.....for Ned its the other way around, I think he would give his life to save even Cersei's ungrateful incestous brood. Notice he doesnt cooperate until Varys points out Sansa is in obvious danger. Its just not in him to threaten children. Its anathema to him. He risked beheading to protect Dany, why is it so odd that he didnt want to kill Cersei and her children? Is it the immediacy of the situation? Is the fact that his life is at risk change things for you in the sense of what he should have done? That doesnt seem right to me.

For some of us, the morality of conflict is lost. Ned was able to see past his need for survival and do the right thing. I really do think he should be praised for that.