Some Musings on Originality (and Style)

[dwndrgn]

Leisha - I'm not an expert (in fact, not even a writer) but I've wandered around this forum for years picking up this and that and from that periphery experience I'd suggest you try some older classics in YA. As Teresa suggested Earthsea is a good one - they are short and well written. Also, and this may sound a bit facile but it is meant sincerely, try something like Winnie the Pooh. Most classics are that for a reason. While Pooh certainly isn't high literature, it is well crafted, well thought out and quite fun and quick to read. Also, since Guy Gavriel Kay worked for you, I would also suggest Patricia McKillip. Books like Alphabet of Thorn and Od Magic are, to me, akin to beautiful music; it flows through you and you enjoy the sensation but as you digest it (for want of a better word) you see the deeper thoughts, feelings and meanings. Her writing has been called lyrical for a reason. In any case, I hope that this helps in some way.

Teresa - wonderful article. Obviously not directed at non-writer me (though as a reader and a reviewer I can understand the thoughts behind it) but quite enjoyable and interesting to read.

[Leisha]

Thank you, Dwndrgn. Winnie the Pooh I'll give a miss, and this is purely because my sister's driven me crazy with it. And now my nephew has his whole room kitted out in Pooh objects, and he always watches the cartoons on TV...

But I'll definitely look into those other authors you mentioned. I don't have the money to buy new books and I rarely get out to the library, but I will look the authors up when I next can.

I appreciate all suggestions.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by Leisha

Sure, we write for the love of writing, but for me I will always have an element of hope, too; one day my work may be read and enjoyed by others.

Honestly, some people give up hope so quickly, I have to suspect that they never had very much hope to begin with. That's why two or three rejections just gut them.

On the other hand, there are people who show much more determination that I think I would have had under the circumstances. So I'm not without sympathy for those who give up. I was lucky in that I wasn't really put to the test. But I can see what a difference sheer determination has made in the case of some of the writers I know.

And McKillip is very, very good. Sometimes, with her later books, the plots can be hard to follow on a first reading, but the thing to remember is that it doesn't matter; you just go with the beautiful words and impressions. On the other hand,The Forgotten Beasts of Eld, the book that really established her reputation, has a clearer storyline and the imagery (although still very beautiful) is less dense. That's the one I would recommend.

Could you send someone to the library for you with a list of books?

[Wiglaf]

I respect and enjoy Tolkien's work and sometimes want to write my own little story about a part of his world he neglected(eg. the economic system, petty dwarves, adventures of the Avari,etc.). However, if I try to get something published, I want it to be my own. Then I end up with The Book of Three. I get an idea for a twist and realize that it is from The Children of Hurin. Next, I try to avoid recreating Gandalf and end up with Fflewddur Fflam. If I read more, will my work become my own, or will I just copy more people?

[Teresa Edgerton]

Everything you ever write will be influenced by things you read, see, think, feel, and do. So yes, the more you read, the more people you will copy -- but, you will no longer be copying their creations whole. You will, essentially, be taking smaller and smaller pieces from more and more sources, and combining them in ways that are uniquely your own.

If the only wizards you ever read about were Gandalf and Dallben, you would probably be unable to visualize a wizard without some combination of white beard, staff, book, and pig. But if you know Prospero, Väinämöinen, Math, Taliesen, Ged, Roger Bacon, Cornelius Agrippa ... the list of wizards in legend, folklore, and literature goes on and on, and a lifetime of study would probably not be sufficient to uncover them all ... then you come to understand more and more that the archetype "wizard" is not limited to any one set of features or characteristics.

And the same applies to any other character you may happen to write about. The more influences you absorb, the less likely you are to copy any one character exactly.

[Wiglaf]

What would be a few books that would be good for expanding the horizons of a fan of old epics, sagas, and tales? Tolkien, Lewis, Alexander, and one book by Cooper comprise my list of books read that were written after the end of the Middle Ages.
I do need something to stimulate new ideas. Especially since I am more inclined to modify or improve things than to create. On paper, I tweak cars and drivetrains, lighting systems, the California state government (really needed), and darn near everything else. I tend to look at things and want to fix them to my specs. When I come all my tweaked, adjusted, and massaged stolen concepts, people do sometimes think I am original though.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by Wiglaf

I tend to look at things and want to fix them to my specs.

An impulse shared by many, many writers -- and not a bad one at all. Shakespeare was known for it. As long as you rework things enough, and bring enough of your own personality and your own particular strengths to your writing, it's a particularly good way to begin.

Since you mention Lloyd Alexander, we can take him as an example: The Prydain books were obviously inspired by the Welsh Mabinogion, there is no mistaking that. But you will not find a character like Fflewddur Fflam or one like Gurgi in the Mabinogion (a Fflam is original!) -- although you will certainly find their names there. And even characters like Gwydion who are closer to their mythical namesakes are not exactly like them. Dallben is a little like Taliesen, but only in his early history. Orddu, Orwen, and Orgoch -- there are associations with the Fates, and the Triple Goddess, certainly, but I have never seen the like of their individual personalities anywhere else. Alexander took the Mabinogion as his starting point, but from there he went off in many different directions. This is very different from, for instance, what Terry Brooks did in Sword of Shannara, following Tolkien character for character and incident by incident.

But as for things you might read to expand your horizons: the medieval sources you've already read are an excellent place to begin. If those don't include the Mabinogion, you should probably read that (lots of good material still there that hasn't turned up as a major influence in anyone's work, and you'll have fun picking out the familiar names). LeGuin's Earthsea books, which have already been mentioned in this thread. McKillip's Riddlemaster trilogy -- an interesting and subtle take on magic that permeates the entire book. These books and Earthsea are very good examples of what I meant by taking a single premise and exploring it extensively. The books in the Fantasy Masterworks series give a very broad view of what fantasy can be. Tanith Lee's Flat Earth books (the setting is sometimes reminscent of the Arabian Nights, but not the stories). LeGuin, McKillip, and Lee are also very excellent writers when it comes to style.

A roundabout way to look up some reviews I wrote on some of my favorite fantasy classics:

Some of the books that have inspired me

Then you might find books on the history of magic, alchemy, natural philosophy, and medicine of interest. Books on folklore from around the world. Anthropology, fairy tales. Tolkein, as we know, built his stories around languages, which were his specia area of expertise. You may have some special area of interest that might be applied to fantasy. (McKillip wrote Song for the Basilisk largely around music. Melanie Rawn, Jennifer Roberson, and Kate Elliott collaborated on The Golden Key which is built around the art and magic of painting.)

And somewhere around here there is a list I put together of reference books useful in creating the everyday background details that can bring a story to life -- at least if it's something similar to the Medieval period you are interested in. I will pause to look it up ... and here is the link:

Research novels?

(Its message #9)

[Leisha]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

And McKillip is very, very good. Sometimes, with her later books, the plots can be hard to follow on a first reading, but the thing to remember is that it doesn't matter; you just go with the beautiful words and impressions. On the other hand,The Forgotten Beasts of Eld, the book that really established her reputation, has a clearer storyline and the imagery (although still very beautiful) is less dense. That's the one I would recommend.

Could you send someone to the library for you with a list of books?

Thank you for helping.

I wish I could send someone to the library, but the trouble is that I'm living with my parents, and my mum's in a wheelchair and my dad is her carer (and he's got back problems), plus they're both getting older. My sister is also signed off work due to an accident, and my other sister now has a toddler to look after. So I don't like to bother them, as you can imagine. I'll find a way of getting the books, though, even if that means a long wait.

I am determined!

[Giovanna Clairval]

Your “Musings about Creativity” gave me a lot to think about, Teresa.

Creativity, you said, is not just an idea, be it an extraordinary one. Creativity lies in the way one handles ideas. Writers are creative when capable of weaving together their experience of life, artistic influences, and tricks of the trade. Good writing depends on how these factors interact; one of the elements is weak or missing, and the result has no depth, a story doesn’t work.

If you are right—and I believe you are—our destiny is in our hands. It is no easy path, though.

Only when writers achieve a blend of inspiration, knowledge and courage, their words find an echo in the reader’s mind and heart.

Inspiration comes unbidden. Let’s talk about knowledge then—something in which we have an active role to play.
We can learn grammar, usage, rules of storytelling, and know literature and genres. We can know the world, but we can’t write in an effective way if we don’t know who we are.

In the words of Gustave Flaubert, “Madame Bovary, c’est moi.” Even the least-autobiographical character is some part of our selves.
What we put down in words is our inner theatre. If the characters—who are voices in our ongoing dialogue—set off to live, and act and chatter like formulaic puppets, towing the story down beaten tracks, it is all about our fear and lack of knowledge about ourselves. What we don’t know will bend us in its own ways.
Lack of inner knowledge leads to seek comfortable, snug places. For a few of us, the comfortable place will be the field of a battle. For others, it is wandering about, collecting objects of power, or depicting childish quarrels… Anything is good that allows us not to dive in the depths.

Knowing oneself implies maturity. Not a maturity of years—even though years can teach lessons—but maturity of the soul.

We must acknowledge the voices that talk in our heads. But most of the time, we can’t even hear them; they speak in silence and inspire our thoughts and feelings, unbeknownst to us. Knowing those parts of us, letting them take front stage, and yet directing them through our stories in twists and turns that aren’t only plot devices, but represent the unravelling of our own fears and desires, this demands courage.

Inspiration may come and knock on our doors. The hard part is finding the courage to know and be true to ourselves.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by Giovanna Clairval

Lack of inner knowledge leads to seek comfortable, snug places. For a few of us, the comfortable place will be the field of a battle. For others, it is wandering about, collecting objects of power, or depicting childish quarrels… Anything is good that allows us not to dive in the depths.

I think you are quite right on several points and have expressed them beautifully, but we may disagree on one point: I believe that certain archetypes turn up in fantasy over and over because people sense that they are metaphors for our deepest hopes, fears, or aspirations -- though we both know that they're often treated in a shallow, unthinking, meaningless way. For some readers, some writers, something as familiar as the fantasy quest can be a profound metaphor, or even the objects of the quest can have deep personal meaning. Or the quest can just be another setting (like a school, or a business office), but one particularly well suited as a backdrop against which the characters may act out a greater drama. Or -- and this is what I think you are talking about -- the quest simply becomes a comfortably familiar game, in which the characters collect magical artifacts like the property deeds in a game of Monopoly.

But whatever we write about, I believe it should be be something that moves us, personally, to some emotion. That emotion could be fear, anger, regret, hope, joy, or wonder. It could be any other emotion that stirs us at the time of writing. But the one thing we shouldn't be doing is adding in characters and events and fantasy tropes like the ingredients in a recipe for commercial or critical success.

If the emotions are true (rather than an affectation) and if we put them into our writing whole-heartedly, and if we succeed in communicating them to our readers, that can make up for a certain amount of technical imperfection.

[Giovanna Clairval]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

I think you are quite right on several points and have expressed them beautifully, but we may disagree on one point: I believe that certain archetypes turn up in fantasy over and over because people sense that they are metaphors for our deepest hopes, fears, or aspirations -- though we both know that they're often treated in a shallow, unthinking, meaningless way. For some readers, some writers, something as familiar as the fantasy quest can be a profound metaphor, or even the objects of the quest can have deep personal meaning. Or the quest can just be another setting (like a school, or a business office), but one particularly well suited as a backdrop against which the characters may act out a greater drama. Or -- and this is what I think you are talking about -- the quest simply becomes a comfortably familiar game, in which the characters collect magical artifacts like the property deeds in a game of Monopoly.

We agree on all points, Teresa. Archetypes are the stuff of which the human psyche is made. As you said, a theme that is recurrent in the genre (because archetypal) can be developed in original ways, whereas wonderfully original ideas can be treated poorly.

I was referring to what you call "the comfortably familiar games", the writer's escape pods.

If the emotions are true (rather than an affectation) and if we put them into our writing whole-heartedly, and if we succeed in communicating them to our readers, that can make up for a certain amount of technical imperfection.

Exactly. When we are true to ourselves, our emotions are true.

[Teresa Edgerton]

I meant to say earlier that I'm with you when it comes to the "childish quarrels." Because that's one of those things I happen to find unendurable. As far as I'm concerned, it's padding disguised as conflict.

[Giovanna Clairval]

So true. I can't read on when I find that padding.