Question about Cheradenine Zakalwe (Spoilers! Read Use of Weapons First!)

[zaratzara]

Not (Spilers! Read [[something else]] first!), then?

A burned out character that has abused so many souls needs a persona, a masque, to be able to function as an apparent soul themselves. Especially, as memebake says, if the character in question lives to see a world where any brutally crushing victory is ultimately futile in the grander scheme, and disinterestedly participate in decades of such incidents.

To play that character in true faith would be utter madness — a lesser madness would be that of adopting a more human image; to find some method, however tortured, of being able to live with yourself, and to have some appearance of purpose in the universe.

The persona of Zakalwe Cheradenine provides that vital character to inhabit for the necessarily corrupted mind of an inhuman war machine born human.

[st33d]

So did no one notice that through out the whole book that the narrative never refers to Zakalwe or whatever name he is going by until someone else addresses him, thus allowing the story to label him?

Somewhat significant, no?

[firefish]

Zakalwe/Chairmaker did not come across to me as a battle hardened tortured soul at all, through any of the book from his perspective, unfortunately. He was a little too cheery, too sensitive, and too flippant throughout and I never bought him as a "good soldier".

I have to admit that I immediately suspected the author was going to pull the ol' switcheroo as soon as I started reading about the two stepbrothers, even before I learned the horrible things one of the stepbrothers did, but the ending was still a "shock".

Honestly I was expecting him to find out that the Culture was behind hatching operation bone chair plan for victory way back then, and then so Cheradinine (the real one in this version) goes out of his way to throw wrenches in the Culture's plans out of spite, much as he was contemplating after they told him his efforts with the Hegemonarchy would need to be reversed to suit their interests.

Anyway, a clever book that was a just too weak with the characterization with the main "protagonist" is my personal review.

I read it because I liked the title.

[RodgerYoung]

I think that if you don't want to give any deeper meaning to the novel you can assign Zakalwe/Elethiomel a logical if not shaky reason for the mix up. During the chapter when he is on the ice he loses his memory, it can be presumed that the damage was so thorough with the bullet and almost freezing to death that he truly believed he was Zakalwe. The only problem with that theory is the chapter when the chair is delivered, because Elethiomel couldn't know about that in any detail. Having said that, the state of the character's mind does not preclude him having invented the details after learning the general points of the story.

The book was great, but I would have liked more details about his life. One of my best reads though.

[Ifie Marplot]

Anyone read 'Surface Detail' yet?

[St Eligius]

Originally Posted by Ifie Marplot

Anyone read 'Surface Detail' yet?

Indeed I have
Have you heard who the poet at the end of the book is hinted at being?


Very interesting!

[Tintin]

I think there is a point made of how Zakalwe repeatedly insists on putting himself in danger, and suffering the painful consequences, in a quite masochistic way. It seems somewhat inexplicable on first pass through the book, given his cynicism about the actual merit of the work he does. His behavior seems bizarre, as if he is just out to punish himself... which of course he is, but we don't understand why until we learn who he actually is, and what sin he is trying to atone for.

I agree that the character has had a kind of psychotic break, and on some level has covinced himself that he is truly Zakalwe.

Just found these forums, and am enjoying the discourse. I'm sure I'll be back soon - Iain Banks book always seem to leave me with questions...

[BenVonHandorf]

Hi! New member here... the chance to discuss Zakalwe made me run off and register right away.

I have to admit, even though I finished Use of Weapons last fall and have read all the rest of the Culture series since then, I still can't decide what I think about UoW. In retrospect, the Banks's consistent use of pronouns for the narrator struck me as odd, but I quickly forgot about it, so the ending came as a shock. He even provides an out in the scene where Cheradinine shoots himself... describing the small caliber pistol and wondering if it will be sufficient.

The twist honestly drove me away from Banks's works for about a month. I felt a little betrayed. At least in Consider Phelbeas you knew you were riding along with someone that you at understood, even if you disagreed with them. Finding out that you were rooting for a psychopathic monster at the end of UoW was... distrubing.

Which brings me to today. I finished Surface Detail last night and was a bit angry to find Zakalwe still alive. In the timelines I can find, SD occurs 900 years after UoW. To find The Chairmaker still alive and fighting other people's wars was disappointing. I'm guessing I can hope that I can interpret it as Zakalwe has died in some conflict at some point along the line and is now in a pleasant afterlife with his poetess... hopefully after doing enough good to atone for his sins. Banks does say Zakalwe was re-embodied, but I'm choosing to ignore that bit.

When does the next Culture novel come out? Maybe we can finally have Zakalwe killed or redeemed (somehow) in it. Then the character can stop bugging me.

[oakford]

I finished reading Use of Weapons last night, and had to come online to try to make sense of the story in my head also, I have enjoyed reading all the different theories and have my own take on it.

I don't think Elethiomel was necessarily crazy in the Hannibal Lector sense of the word, I agree he has done what he has HAD to do to bring the war to a conclusion, yes it is sick to make a chair out of a person, however is it any sicker than dropping the BOMB on Hiroshima, killing many innocent citizens in a painful way? This was also justified to win a war. I think Elethiomel was so sickened by doing this act of chairmaking that he did develop a split personality. I do definately need to reread the book, and as I type this I remember the 'bone chip' scar that Zakalwe got when they were younger, which is confusing if it is Elethiomel 'recalling' past events. Anyway, loved the book

[RodgerYoung]

Originally Posted by oakford

I don't think Elethiomel was necessarily crazy in the Hannibal Lector sense of the word, I agree he has done what he has HAD to do to bring the war to a conclusion, yes it is sick to make a chair out of a person, however is it any sicker than dropping the BOMB on Hiroshima, killing many innocent citizens in a painful way? This was also justified to win a war. I think Elethiomel was so sickened by doing this act of chairmaking that he did develop a split personality.

I think that your analysis plays into the nature of the title "Use of Weapons" The idea that on some level the chairmaker is a weapon by whoever uses him and that his insistence on meeting his objective by any means necessary is akin to the use of the atom bomb, or Atilla's destruction of who knows how many towns and cities. In fact, Zakalwe/Elethiomel is the synthesis of every warlord in one sense, because he would employ any method, no matter how brutal to win.

That also could suggest a reason for his infatuation with Sma, because he can't use tenderness to win, and can never woo her.

After thinking about this, my new question is, does the book support the chairmaker in his adventure? Not in his acts of brutality, but his journey to rediscover his identity. Does the revelation at the end show that he has humanity and feels regret? Or does it show that our identities are inescapable and we should be punished for our trangressions, no matter what we do to redeem ourselves?

[oakford]

Another question to ask is would the Culture/Contact have used Zakalwe if they had known who he really was, or would it not have bothered them? In whatever war they involve themselves in, there is always massive loss of life, seemingly more so when they 'support' both sides, what does it really say about the Culture? Zakalwe himself is a 'weapon' used how they see fit

[me myself him]

Do we know for sure if it was Elethiomel or Cheradenine that Darckense had sex with? And why she did?

I'm pretty sure that we don't have any evidence as to how she was killed, (the chair makes one think she was somehow tortured, but I tend to think not, the fact of her death and abuse of the cadaver was sufficient to push Cheradenine over the edge).

I think WW2 and Churchill and civilian bombing (etc) would have been one of the inspirations for the overall theme.

[Juleso]

Out of all the books I have read and regardless of the genre, Use Of Weapons will stand out as one of the best books I have ever encountered.

Ah to hell with it, at the risk of being verbally assaulted by a bunch of well read, booker prize list aficionados, I would like to say here that it IS the best book I have ever read. There, I've said it.

[Metallideth]

I read UoW a long time ago and, well, looking back upon the experience I'm surprised to see how much people seem to love it. I'm fine with twisted plots that go all over the place, but the book just never seemed to draw me in. I read through the details of Zakalwe's past without even so much as a hint of interest. There was somewhat of a dark, twisted allure that kept me reading through to the end, but even as I read through the ending plot twist, my heart didn't skip a beat like I would have been conditioned to expect from such a revelation.

As a result, in my eyes UoW became one of the most inconsequential books I ever read, neither good enough nor bad enough to make much of a lasting impression, although I'd be hard pressed to explain why. It's been a while, but I seem to remember the storyline jumping around a bit too often to draw me in thoroughly enough. I've read a lot of Banks' books: Matter, Use of Weapons, Player of Games, Algebraist, Transition, Consider Phlebas, Surface Detail, and Against a Dark Background. All of them I've enjoyed (to varying degrees of course) aside from UoW, which I neither liked nor hated.

[TheTomG]

Each to their own! Use of Weapons and The Player of Games are my two favorite M Banks books, perhaps even my favorites if I expand to his mainstream too, though I am partial to The Bridge and Espedair Street there and it's not exactly comparing apples and oranges to try and pick a favorite across genres.

But of course, everyone's mileage will vary, which is just as well - if we all agreed there was one best book in the world, we'd probably all have to give up writing because the one perfect book had come into existence and all else would be but a pale shadow. So, long live differences of opinion!

For me the concept that anything can be a weapon, and that people exist who seek to find and use the 'perfect' weapon for any scenario is an interesting one - as is the question on whether people will stop at using that weapon because of its cost. This can be contemplated on many levels, from the global raw weapons such as nuclear and biological, to the global non-weapons such as cyber attacks and going after an economy / infrastructure, to the personal with words and relationships.

What weapons do you use daily, how closely do you look for them, and do you weigh up the costs before deploying them?