plan or not to plan that is the question

[CORONATIONCAGES]

plan out in detail each chapter in detail like gemmell did
or
go with the flow moving through the journey with you charactures?

[CORONATIONCAGES]

im am in the latter camp by the way

[CORONATIONCAGES]

btw i am dyslexic so if i spell owt wrong dont point it out to me. (or you will be writing to me all day everyday)

[Teresa Edgerton]

There's a thread somewhere about where we discuss whether to outline or not; you might find some of the answers there interesting, in addition to whatever responses you get here.

To sum up what I've said elsewhere: I think it can be very helpful to plan, either loosely or in great detail -- just as long as you remain flexible enough to depart from your plans and go with the flow, whenever new and better ideas come along. I do a lot of planning, but I've learned not to stick with my first (very often immature) conception of a story once it becomes clear that I and my characters have outgrown it.

But some people do so much mental planning before they ever actually sit down and begin to map out chapters, their ideas may already have matured. (Even then, I still think it's a good idea to be willing to make changes.)

So my answer is, essentially, do both, in whatever proportion works for you.

[Sephiroth]

I refer to my plan as 'skeletal', a lot. It tells me what the major events and occurrences are, and roughly when they happen in relation to one another (and perhaps a short paragraph of notes of their significance).

I don't plan in 'chapters' or 'books', however. I won't know until I've written a particular section of narrative exactly how long it will be and what it will contain. But the general outline has to be there, for me, or I wouldn't know where I was going next.

Teresa's last sentence pretty much sums it up, for me. You settle into a way of working that you like, and which works for you.

And if the plan is outdated and is restricting what you want to do next, you have to bin it, and start all over again. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to redraft my structural plan.......

[Nik]

I've had tales that more-or-less wrote themselves, based only on a title that chose itself based on the core idea...

I've had short stories that took a fearsome amount of research for each apparently casual phrase...

And I've a long tale with so much research and spread-sheets and plotting that I gotta write it to be rid...

Whatever works for you !!

[J.G.Thomas]

There was indeed another thread around not so long ago about plans and outlining.

I've tried both methods (writing with a plan and writing without) and have found that I need some sort of underlying structure otherwise I lose the thread of the story. It is easy to write yourself into a corner and have no way out.

For my current project, I have a nice leather-bound notebook that contains background/history as well as a series of bullet points concerning the plotlines and the way the whole thing works.

I find I need the bones to be in order before I can lay on the flesh.

[dustinzgirl]

It also depends on the kind of person you are. I've tried to outline. I can't do it, I wind up writing because I get stuck on an image. Plus, outlining utterly bores me because then its like work. On the other hand, if I treated my fiction and poetry writing like I treat my work writing, I would probably be published by now.

It is kind of lazy not to outline, but like I said, it depends on the type of person you are.

So I wrote about 60,000 words on a novel that really could be better in voice and characterization. Plots good, so far as I and my darling friends who have helped me can tell. So I started to outline, going through what I had already written and what I needed to add, change, describe.....and then I wound up working on a whole 'nother novel. Not really my fault, I just have a huge lack of discipline and my thoughts are equivocal to a supernova--huge and fast and eventually scattered.

I think the majority of the good authors, and I mean the really good ones, outline their novels. But its not so easy, as I am learning, fiction outlining is a discipline in its own right.

So I guess I'm kind of weird, some of the how to and ebooks I've edited and written sections of were easy because I had an outline already done, an easy outline that goes "This is this and that is that" and in doing some market research stuff (that I pretty much hate, but when you find those contracts they are good) I always have to have an outline I wrote like "Point A, B, C and how they connect, what they mean" ect ect...but its not the same when you write fiction because there are so many other variables that have to be explored and decided upon as important or not important. Like, is it important if my heroine is a virgin? I suppose in some cases it would be, but in others not...it is important that her dad was a boxer and she can kick some butt, because otherwise she'd be dead by now...so forth and so on....

I feel like I'm blabbering, and I kind of am.

[Teresa Edgerton]

I wonder if we all mean the same thing when we say "outline." For me, it's simply a detailed synopsis or rough, rough draft. I get the basis story down, along with any other things (descriptions, dialogue) that occur to me along the way. It's a way of finding out what the story is, or more accurately, what it might be -- more a process of discovery than anything else. Things come up that I hadn't thought of previously, and it gives me a chance to prepare for them as I go, and to really think about them before I build too much of my plot around them.

In the outline stage it's so much easier to say, "Nope, I don't think I will after all." On the other hand, if I've already invested pages and pages of fabulous prose in something that turns out to be not such a brilliant idea in its conception ... there can be a long, unproductive period of making excuses as to why it shouldn't go, before I finally get up the intestinal fortitude to cut it out.

In a way, it's like writing a no-pressure first draft. It doesn't have to be good, I just have to get ideas on paper, so that I can look at them and consider them at greater length later.

But sitting down and giving a dry recitation of what I think should happen and when, or diagramming the structure in advance -- I'm sure that would be boring enough to kill any creative urges on my part.

[dustinzgirl]

Well I think of an outline as like, what you send to editors when getting an article approval...

Intro
Point A
Point B
Point C
Conclusion

Your basic five paragraph article (essay, in school) outline only expanded for a novel.

Or the same thing when I contract out writing business plans (extremely boring, but ultimately kind of fun because I get to play with numbers and graphs)---speaking of graphing, on a totally side note I find that I am really liking word 2007 now, aside from my earlier hatred of the program. Its almost surprising how easy it is to make bad numbers look good on paper. Now if I could just make my bad fiction writing look good on paper--LOL!

Intro
Product
Cost
Profit
Market
Funding
Conclusion

If a rough draft is an outline, what I usually do is just write until I'm tired and then try to figure out what the heck it was I wrote (at least in fiction).



I'm so weird, I think I actually outline in my head and then put it on paper as a rough draft. I spend a lot of time just thinking...thinking...thinking...and half as much time writing.

For me, I am realizing that my problem really isn't in my thinking or writing, its in actually disciplining myself into thinking while I'm writing...if that makes any sense. When I write poetry or fiction I'm very undisciplined in that it just comes out. Word vomit, essentially.

Perhaps, Teresa, like you said the structure of an outline can just be very boring, so I lose interest, especially in something I don't know if I will actually get paid for, so when I write non-fiction for contracts its easier to outline because its all one consistent format and I know I am getting paid for it.

Ah, but all this doesn't really answer the original question, to outline or not to outline?

And like the older question, to be or not to be, it totally depends on the type of person you are and what you are doing.

Boy, am I in a rambling mood today or what? I really need to lay off the expressssssssssssssssooooooooooooooooooooo!

[Anne Lyle]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

I wonder if we all mean the same thing when we say "outline."

Apparently not!

I start by brainstorming my novel - longhand in a notebook, conversations with myself, debating ideas for characters and plot, discarding the ones that lead in directions that don't interest me (or don't make sense!). This can take up to a month.

Then I try to to organize those thoughts into a coherent storyline - beginning, middle and end, with turning points and a climax. I try to end up with enough scenes to fill a novel, even if I have very little idea of what is going to happen in each one beyond "Characters A and B talk about C" or whatever. This is the document I refer to as my outline - it's a road map to my intended literary adventure.

Finally I write a very rough draft, again in about a month (e.g. for NaNoWrimo), and see where it takes me!

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

In the outline stage it's so much easier to say, "Nope, I don't think I will after all." On the other hand, if I've already invested pages and pages of fabulous prose in something that turns out to be not such a brilliant idea in its conception ... there can be a long, unproductive period of making excuses as to why it shouldn't go, before I finally get up the intestinal fortitude to cut it out.

In a way, it's like writing a no-pressure first draft. It doesn't have to be good, I just have to get ideas on paper, so that I can look at them and consider them at greater length later.

Mine is a no-pressure first draft

And, as you say, it's much easier to cut something if the prose hasn't been polished and slaved over.

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

But sitting down and giving a dry recitation of what I think should happen and when, or diagramming the structure in advance -- I'm sure that would be boring enough to kill any creative urges on my part.

True - I've tried planning the whole thing in detail and it just doesn't work. I need to write the characters in order to get to know them - otherwise my subconscious thinks it's dull and refuses to cooperate...

The only time I do a detailed plan is on a smaller scale, if I hit a really complicated section. For example, at the climax of Act One of my WiP there's a fire at the Rose Theatre and a murder in Bankside, and I needed to know exactly where all my characters were at any time and who would encounter one another in all the mayhem! Without a detailed timeline, that chapter would never have got written

[Runewolf]

I try to outline my chapters but it doesn't always work. When this happens I have my notebook beside me to write down scenes and when they are taking place, new characters, or species of animal, bird, plants, etc. Having character outlines helps alot as well because you can never have enough information on your characters. I'm far from being a great writer but some day I'd like to be, so I just take notes on everything that I think will make my novel more interesting and exciting. It's really hard to say if you should outline or not, some swear by it but your ideas for certain parts may change as you continue writing. The most important thing in the beginning is to get the story out of your head and finish it whether you use an outline or not.

[Giovanna Clairval]

When I wrote my first novel, I didn’t outline at all. It went everywhere, rambling towards the ending, which was the only clear thing I had in mind from the very start. As a result, this novel contains a few good descriptions, several wonderful scenes, and a lot of witty but useless digressions. It will never quit my drawer. I already know what any critique would say about its structure: that there is none.

I think that you probably need to outline if your novel is plot driven. If, on the other hand, you plan on writing a novel where the literary flavour is the most important aspect… Many non-genre authors admit to ignoring outlines.

Now, I outline. It’s just stacking lines of words, one for each event, and with no concrete—not even clay— to link a line to another. Then, I write as if I were possessed. I finish the novel in five weeks. After that, I rewrite… a lot. I often chop and cut and bite out scenes with my bleeding teeth (oh, I do understand the expression “intestinal courage”, Teresa). The only parts I seldom cut are dialogues.

We don’t write for us. Well, yes, we do. Let me start again. We don’t write only for us. We aim at drawing the reader into our world, making her feel for our heroine or worry for the cat that is lost. There are techniques, rules of storytelling. For a start, we have to learn them. Am I straying from the subject? What I’d like to say is that our imagination, without a pilot, leads us where our subconscious wants. It’s great. It costs much less than analysis. Now the question is, "will the reader follow "?

If outlines make you sneeze, try to proceed by scene linkage. You know, the famous action, reaction, decision; and so on, scene after scene. Each scene should lead to another, in an inevitable way. You can build an entire novel like that. It works very well with romance, although, whenever the plot is complex, this method is not enough. If your plot is central to the story, you need to outline, even if it’s only in your head.

[Commonmind]

Originally Posted by Giovanna Clairval

If outlines make you sneeze, try to proceed by scene linkage. You know, the famous action, reaction, decision; and so on, scene after scene. Each scene should lead to another, in an inevitable way. You can build an entire novel like that. It works very well with romance, although, whenever the plot is complex, this method is not enough. If your plot is central to the story, you need to outline, even if it’s only in your head.

And if you'd like to look into this method more deeply, it's often referred to as "Scene and Sequel." As Giovanna stated, entire novels are written this way, but it certainly doesn't lend itself well to Sci-fi/Fantasy (in my opinion), where plots are often too complex for method writing. (Bob Ross was a technique painter, and if you're trying to emulate his work than using his method will suffice. But you certainly won't be able to create an artistic masterpiece with technique painting. In other words, beware of methodology, for it often truncates creativity.)

[Jarshen]

I come from a theatre devising background but had to actively avoid any of the techniques in creating plots and shows that we used because writing a novel is so different. And I think out of fear.

First time I just had a vague idea and wrote and discovered things. This ha, is now the 2nd novel and will be substantialy reworked. What this gave me though was a much more thorough idea of the world as a whole, some of the themes and possible end points as well as some interplay stuff.

Second time around I was not able to really go ahead until I had made some strong decisions and choices about characters, again I discovered this through writing, but spotted the problems much quicker. I knew there had to be more of an outline, even if it changes a bit etc.

It has changed, one characater in particualr refused to do what I wanted, and I refused to let him go for two weeks, then tried it and it was one of my best decisions. The novel is partly the consequences of his choice.

The second novel is going to be more structured but I like Sephiroth's skeletal image and it sems to sum up most people's feelings on here.

There are people who like nailing everything down and cannot start until they know the end, there are those who have a rough idea and go with it. I am the latter but agree with Giovanna and Teresa that you have to be prepared to cut a lot out. And no one has even read mine yet.

For the record we played commedia and used to have what we called islands, either songs, acro bits, stupid routines, fights or ensemble pieces that were well rehearsed. These were not improvised, but they meant we always knew where we were heading and could relax when we got there. In between chaos and inspiration could happen, and we could sometimes completely go off knowing we could come back. I think this is now what I am doing, creating islands and then finding out how I get there.

In the end, I think find what works for you and makes you inspired enough to create. Hang everyone else.