Invented Languages -- This way lies madness?

[Michael]

I agree, Brian. In fact, I believe its mentioned in the foreword of at at least one edition that he began the story as "an exercise in linguistics." Without his training, I'd expect that this kind of project requires extensive research at the very least.

[Neil040]

Originally Posted by Michael

I agree, Brian. In fact, I believe its mentioned in the foreword of at at least one edition that he began the story as "an exercise in linguistics." Without his training, I'd expect that this kind of project requires extensive research at the very least.

That is more than a little true re Tolkien.. did you know his background? I took a particular interest in him because I fell in love with his work as a teenager and a few years later discovered that he grew up in the same area of south Birmingham that I did.. the same mill and river I played in was the one that inspired him also.. but also that he went to the same grammar school too! Too cool for words I thought!!

Anyway, at that school he apparently was a freaky genius of linguistics.. he actually debated in latin.. became one of the few people alive who could SPEAK Anglo Saxon.. and became an expert linguist in ancient Nordic! Gawd knows how you do all this by the time you are 18 but there you go.. lol

So... the languages of his books.. he tried to develop them from his knowledge of all those ancient languages.. the way he did this was BACKWARDS! He actually tried to imagine the origin of the classic northern languages and retro-engineer to end up with the elven and dwarven tongues.. no-one else has ever done anything remotely like that as far as I know.. which explains to some extent how his languages are fully phonetically and grammaticaly correct...

So have a go...

[Aedan]

Like Tolkien, I am basing my languages on other sweet-sounding languages (or at least languages that read sweetly (as in welsh, finnish, etc.)).

It does take a long time, but the most difficult part of it is creating the grammatic rules. Words, for me, are simple. Grammatics, on the other hand, are not my forte.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Yes, the words were much the easiest for me, too. Particularly because I based a lot of them on Welsh or Irish -- I do love the look and the sound of those languages.

[Aedan]

Interesting... I hadn't thought of Irish. Did you base them off of Gaelic-Irish, or just Irish?

[Neil040]

Originally Posted by Aedan

Interesting... I hadn't thought of Irish. Did you base them off of Gaelic-Irish, or just Irish?

Not speaking for Kelpie, but its one and the same really.. when people refer to Irish that means the Gaelic.. there may be a classical as well as a everyday version but I am not sure.. will ask my wife when she is home.. she knows some Irish..

For myself, having lived in Wales as well as Ireland, I would have to say that while both languages are of course very similar.. I always thought that Welsh is not as pleasant to listen to as Irish, which is softer and more flowing generally. Welsh is good sung of course as is Irish but a bit rougher to hear spoken..

[Teresa Edgerton]

Right, Irish is Gaelic -- though Gaelic is not always Irish. I just like the look of the Irish better than the Scots version. (I might have preferred the Manx -- who knows? -- but how to come up with a Manx/English, English/Manx dictionary or a Learn to Speak Manx-Gaelic book was beyond me.)

There is a bit of Breton influence in some of the southern names, and there would have been more, but after a long search on the net all I could come up with was an online word list (very brief) and a Breton/English dictionary (which I bought) so inadequate as to hardly be worth the name.

[absalom]

Originally Posted by Kelpie

Right, Irish is Gaelic -- though Gaelic is not always Irish.

Yes- they are not one and the same, but Irish is certainly Gaelic. I will agree with Brian that Irish is very easy on the ears (my Scot ancestors are spinning in their graves, or roaming their haunts, 'cause I said that- but Scot means Irish in Latin, so the blue lady should go back to her bier...).

If you're going to invent a language I'd suggest basing it, closely, on an existing one. Too hard otherwise. Also, you might read some of the psycholinguistics literature. Stephen (sp?) Pinker has written some books for the layman.

I speak 4 languages well enough to get around in (one of which is non-Indo-European), read a few more, and have a superficial familiarity with another half dozen. I don't think I could invent a convincing language, from whole cloth. Language is one of the most amazing things we do (recognizing faces, and reading emotion in them, is right up there, IMHO)- even the dullest of us is a virtuoso by the time he's three.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Once a language (or two) has been invented for a fantasy world, how much do you think the author should make use of it in the story?

Should it serve as a basis for names and places, as I used it? There have been complaints in other threads about stories with unpronouncable foreign names.

Should you drop in one or two word examples, every now and again, for flavor? Or will this just drive the readers crazy wondering what the characters are saying?

Should you reserve it for cases where it is clear from the context what the word or phrase means? (For instance, if it's used as a greeting, the reader can surely figure out that whatever else it may mean, it essentially translates to "Hello.")

Should it be used only for some special purpose: for instance in magic spells, or ancient inscriptions, or to describe things for which there are no exact equivalent in our world (a different species, or a third sex).

Ought the author to provide translations in the story itself? In footnotes? In a glossary? Or should he or she leave these things as an intriguing puzzle for readers to figure out, if they happen to be interested in that sort of thing?

Just how far should an author go, in using an invented language within the story?

[zorcarepublic]

Well, Im not writing a story on it, but I have a universe which I may pursue that has a race with six genders (gender-male, gender-female and four gender-neutral. One of the neutral genders provides hormones that vastly increases the possibility of conception, while the other three are sexes 'designed' for specific tasks-one is a warrior sex, the second a worker sex and the third is what could be called a social worker/guardian, as the children of a race are looked after in a kibbutz(sp?)-like society. There is even a seventh gender, which combines all aspects of the six genders-they used to be reviled, but now are revered. The names for the sexes are: Fe'Mea, Ma'Lea (female and male respectively), Horma (hormone gender), Marti (warrior), Manu (worker) and Guardi)

[Ciuva]

I've tried to invent a language several times, but everytime I learn something new about languages (quite often, since that's what I study), I feel I have to rewrite my grammar. I've thought of giving it up several times, but since I am a perfectionist, I feel I really have to make a real grammar and a fully functional language for the three (!!) sentences I need it for. What a waste of time...
When that is said, the idea of inventing a language I would actually be able to speak, have always fascinated me... But for my part, it has turned into quite an obsession I would have liked to be without.
Usually I base it on/is inspirated by finnish, old norse (don't know what it's really called in English) and the language that preceded old norse. But I use shamelessly from all languages I can find...

[chopper]

Rather than go for Welsh, Irish or the Nordic tongues for inspiration, I had a look at Afrikaans - European root, but developed separately over the last couple of centuries. My brain ain't big enough to create an entire language with rules and everything else, and Michael Neil & Brian have pointed out that Tolkien was coming at this from a different angle completely. What I want to create is a kind of "flavour" that readers can understand, pronounce and not go "oh, he's just made that tosh up! How the heck do you say Yldr'pklawrthanonbf without choking?"

Of course the problem is remaining consistent with usage throughout.

[Princess Ivy]

Originally Posted by littlemissattitude

Hah! I have enough trouble with English. Why in the world would I try to invent a language?

i'm in complete agreement there!

[Teresa Edgerton]

Well, for one thing: because it might give you a better appreciation for English -- what a lovely, logical, flexible, and expressive thing it is.

(At least as compared to the morass in which one finds oneself sinking when inventing a new language!)

[Estelthea]

Originally Posted by Kelpie

Ah, so I'm not the only one here crazy enough to try this. There are at least three of us.

Four! Like most people I was inspired by Tolkien to think about inventing langauges but I also really love words and started out making character and palce names. I spent the summer of 2000, between school and university, working on a language for my story (I probably should have been outside in the sun instead of making strange noises to see what I could come up with). Since taking up my computer keyboard again recently I've started reviewing the work I did and I'm trying to work on divising a root language from the words I've already made. I want to build a much bigger vocabulary that I have at the moment and try to make it all tie together through the root langauge.

It is rather madness inducing sometimes, especially trying to create words that look different but can be pronounced, and look attractive to, English speakers (sine the story they accompany is written in English). And when someone says "how do you say 'hello'" and I realise I can't remember the word!