Moorcock's "Great Themes"

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by speedingslug

The Law/Chaos theme run by gods ended in the Corum books. I love the religious theme to these books that in fact we create our own gods and the let them rule us. The balance was the one core part of the eternal champion books it didn't matter which side our hero/anti hero was on he was their to restore the weight from on side to the other, a cosmic harmony if you will. Dancers on the other hand had no real Law/Chaos theme but then again everyone was godlike anyway.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that, as this theme seems to continue in the more recent Elric novels (such as The Revenge of the Rose, or even The Dreamthief's Daughter, etc.), as well as the later Eternal Champion books such as The Dragon in the Sword; and even to have been brought to the fore again in things such as the Multiverse graphic novel. At any rate, even where not overtly labeled as such, this is a theme that permeates all of Moorcock's fiction, and is tied to some of his sociopolitical views, as can be seen by The Retreat from Liberty, or even his introductory essay to Moorcock's Book of Martyrs (a.k.a. Dying for Tomorrow).

(To be honest, I'm not sure Moorcock lets any theme end... he always goes back to it when he has more to say on the subject, though often the handling is quite different and, of course, becomes more subtle and nuanced as the years have gone by.)

As for the Dancers... well, that was the idea that sparked the short story "Elric at the End of Time" -- someone (I think it was M. John Harrison?) mentioned that, to Elric, the people of that era would be the Lords of Chaos -- and Moorcock chose to go with this in the ending of the story, hinting that Arioch in the Elric tales had been Lord Jagged all along....

The thing about Moorcock's work is it is all interwoven with these themes and internal connections... not to the degree that one must read all of them to enjoy any one of them -- he's very careful to avoid that -- but that, for those who do, it adds multiple layers not only of self-reference but also of meaning and philosophical concept to them... and ends up creating a quite complex whole both on the level of story and philosophy/theme.

And, of course, the Champion was never entirely on one side or the other consistently, even within any particular story... as you say, the struggle was to maintain the balance (or approximately so), as that was what provided the dynamic for life. For example: as Colin Greenland pointed out, when Elric turns against Chaos at the end, one is left with a conundrum... is this Elric actually becoming a servant of Law, or is this yet one more example of a chaotic act? (And speaking of Greenland's analysis of Moorcock, for those who enjoy the Cornelius stories... I've always absolutely loved the line he included in his examination of those, in summing up Jerry and his milieu: "The Global Village breeds the Global Village Idiot". Oh, how true....)

[Giovanna Clairval]

Just passing… I was thinking of the status of reality in Moorcock's novels.

I will just post a quotation from The Chronicles of Corum.



"Invent phantoms? Fabulous beasts? Powerful Gods? Whole Cosmologies?" said the astonished traveller. "Are all these things, then unreal?"

"They're real enough," Corum replied. " Reality, after all, is the easiest thing in the world to create."

[Urlik]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

Urlik... I'd tend to agree, in a sense, that it's an ideal... in the almost strict sense of that word. But even there, I think, from my reading, he'd be cautious about applying it too strongly, as it is the variety and complexity that allows for dynamic growth, and even establishing an "ideal" equilibrium is likely to stultify that to some degree.... Would you agree with that, or do you read it otherwise?

IMO the ideal is enough chaos to provide change with enough order to allow that change to establish itself, so the ideal balancce might not be equal

in some ways the worlds of Law seemed to be echoed in Terry Pratchett's Auditors (Hogfather, Thief of Time, Darwin's Watch)

[Connavar]

Im reading Corum books in a big omnibus.

I was wondering does the stories get more down to earth?

Without any spoilers, i mean does Corum revenge and goals be about the evil Mabden people that destroyed his people or will it be about the Sword Rulers and Chaos vs Order etc

I like his weird themes but i must say i enjoyed Corum early when there was a better balance of down to earth stories with Corum seeing what happened to his people in other castles and his own home.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Connavar of Rigante

Im reading Corum books in a big omnibus.

I was wondering does the stories get more down to earth?

Without any spoilers, i mean does Corum revenge and goals be about the evil Mabden people that destroyed his people or will it be about the Sword Rulers and Chaos vs Order etc

I like his weird themes but i must say i enjoyed Corum early when there was a better balance of down to earth stories with Corum seeing what happened to his people in other castles and his own home.

The Corum tales are much more on the "large themes" (I use quotation marks here because Moorcock has something to say about that by the end of the books), as is rather fitting, since they are based (often quite loosely) on older Celtic myths and legends. Moorcock used his fantasy of this period for tackling this sort of metaphysical and philosophical theme -- in part, a reflection of the times, I think....

[Connavar]

So i take that as no NO :P


I like the themes, i dont mind even if it gets too much planes and gods sometimes.

I just found the story more interesting when it was about the strange cruel world a noble creature like Corum had to change and become more evil and human like than the sword rulers or whoever appears later.

My fav part so far is when he got to know some feelings for the first time. "Corum learned anger " and so on.


By the way is Elric more about his world than the gods? I dont mind the gods i just wanna see more of the world.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Connavar of Rigante

So i take that as no NO :P


I like the themes, i dont mind even if it gets too much planes and gods sometimes.

I just found the story more interesting when it was about the strange cruel world a noble creature like Corum had to change and become more evil and human like than the sword rulers or whoever appears later.

My fav part so far is when he got to know some feelings for the first time. "Corum learned anger " and so on.


By the way is Elric more about his world than the gods? I dont mind the gods i just wanna see more of the world.

Oh, you'll see more of Corum's world later... especially with the second trilogy. You'll also meet one of my favorite Moorcock characters (aside from the Rose and Una Persson)... Prince Gaynor the Damned....

Umm... yes, you do see a lot of Elric's world, and there's some interesting history there, too... I won't go into too much detail, but you find in Stormbringer that some of the odd aspects of the history of Elric's world may be because of the same reasons as the "feeling" of the Earth simulations in The Wrecks of Time (a.k.a. The Rituals of Infinity)....

That's one of the neat things about Moorcock (to me)... you can read each story/series by itself and just enjoy it as such; they're written to be read and enjoyed individually. But if you read a lot of Moorcock, you find all sorts of connections not only plotwise, but also conceptually and philosophically... not surprising, with his fondness for allegory....

EDIT: You know, I'd be very curious to see what you think of the novel The Eternal Champion itself.....

[Connavar]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

Oh, you'll see more of Corum's world later... especially with the second trilogy. You'll also meet one of my favorite Moorcock characters (aside from the Rose and Una Persson)... Prince Gaynor the Damned....

Umm... yes, you do see a lot of Elric's world, and there's some interesting history there, too... I won't go into too much detail, but you find in Stormbringer that some of the odd aspects of the history of Elric's world may be because of the same reasons as the "feeling" of the Earth simulations in The Wrecks of Time (a.k.a. The Rituals of Infinity)....

That's one of the neat things about Moorcock (to me)... you can read each story/series by itself and just enjoy it as such; they're written to be read and enjoyed individually. But if you read a lot of Moorcock, you find all sorts of connections not only plotwise, but also conceptually and philosophically... not surprising, with his fondness for allegory....

EDIT: You know, I'd be very curious to see what you think of the novel The Eternal Champion itself.....

I saw Eternal Champion in his biblio, wierd even Corum has a book in that series.

I geuss i will see why several of his heroes are called Eternal Champion.

Right now i dont have a clue.

A question will i see whats with name Eternal Champion in Corum series since he is called that by fans ?

Or does that appear in other series like the series called Eternal Champion?

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Connavar of Rigante

I saw Eternal Champion in his biblio, wierd even Corum has a book in that series.

I geuss i will see why several of his heroes are called Eternal Champion.

Right now i dont have a clue.

A question will i see whats with name Eternal Champion in Corum series since he is called that by fans ?

Or does that appear in other series like the series called Eternal Champion?

uh-oh....

Hmmm. Okay... Corum is the Eternal Champion... as are Elric, Dorian Hawkmoon, Jerry Cornelius, Konrad Arflane, Sojan, Renark, Erekosë.... In other words, the Eternal Champion is exactly that. He is the Champion, and he is eternal; he has existed since before time, and will exist when time is no more. He is not always human (Elric and Corum are neither of them truly human, for instance), nor is he always male. His purpose is to fight the Eternal War between Law and Chaos, in order to maintain the Balance. Sometimes he fights for one side, sometimes for the other. He is not confined to one world, or even one universe, but appears wherever required throughout the multiverse. Most aspects of the Champion are unaware of being such; Erekosë, on the other hand, remembers all his existences (though not necessarily the details of them). There are times when several aspects of the Champion are brought together for a particular purpose... something which is very dangerous to the stability of the fabric of reality itself (you'll see such an example in the Corum tales, for instance).

In other words... the Corum stories are one smaller subset within the enormously complex overarching cycle of the Eternal Champion, which contains damn' near every piece of fiction (and -- at least thematically -- even some nonfiction) Moorcock has ever written.

However... as I noted earlier, he did write them so that they could be read separately, without having read any of the others, though they do have internal links and references to them... they are just things that you either might not catch, or which may come across as atmosphere, or just a very wonky line now and again (such as the Thing Elric and Rackhir meet with in Elric of Melniboné, which maintains its identity by calling itself "Thing" until dying, when it says "Frank"... this being a reference to Frank Cornelius, brother -- and frequent pain-in-the-neck nemesis of Jerry Cornelius, who was indeed very likely to have a different version of him showing up in another reality that was very much like Thing; as well as to the fact that the first Cornelius tales written were recastings in modern form of the early Elric tales). To those who have read a lot of Moorcock, these can add several more layers, not only with continuity with plot and concept, but can also be symbolic of different things Moorcock is saying with the work.

So... don't worry about not having read the other tales in the Champion cycle; either you'll find yourself looking them up later, or you'll find you don't care for Moorcock. In the latter case, it really doesn't matter; in the former, you'll begin to see the bigger picture on your own....

[Connavar]

Wow hehe very complex stuff.

But it will be interesting see the different ECs.

[j. d. worthington]

Well, in its own way, Moorcock's work has become as richly complex and detailed as Tolkien's, but in a different fashion... and also with this added difference: Whereas Tolkien did most of his working out the details of his created world(s) and their implications and history before publishing (in most cases, that is; there are exceptions), Moorcock has published as he's gone along, putting him more in the line of such as James Branch Cabell, whose vision evolved as he went along, until it became an extremely complex structure rich in thought and interpretation.

This is one of the things I find so fascinating about Moorcock's writing: the evolution from quite humble, even simple, beginnings, really, to this enormous, sprawling structure that nonetheless shows deep thought and great insight into and celebration of the human experience in all its vast, multifarious complexity....

[Connavar]

He must have quite the imagination then to come up with his ideas.

Im in the end the of the first book where you see Arioch, his views on things and the hole island of his is fascinating.

I must say its shocking to know Moorcock didnt create his hole world before publishing, that he didnt have his created world,history figured out way before he put everything down.

Its actually refereshing, its not often you read authors like that. Atleast not so far for me.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Connavar of Rigante

He must have quite the imagination then to come up with his ideas.

Im in the end the of the first book where you see Arioch, his views on things and the hole island of his is fascinating.

I must say its shocking to know Moorcock didnt create his hole world before publishing, that he didnt have his created world,history figured out way before he put everything down.

Its actually refereshing, its not often you read authors like that. Atleast not so far for me.

From my understanding (and do not take this as gospel, by any means), Moorcock does plot things out, and when it comes to his "created world" for a particular work, he has that planned out (at least in general; some specific details may only be sketched in to begin with, to develop as the story gets written); but... when you do something as sprawling and as convoluted as the Eternal Champion cycle, with its enormous ramifications and various growing philosophical points, then having everything planned ahead very much puts you in a straitjacket, and it shows. A lot of Moorcock is very conscious, but I'd say the heart of his work is often unconscious and comes from within; and this is what gives his work conviction as a whole (individual works may or may not have that, but taken in its entirety, it's definitely there).

[Connavar]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

From my understanding (and do not take this as gospel, by any means), Moorcock does plot things out, and when it comes to his "created world" for a particular work, he has that planned out (at least in general; some specific details may only be sketched in to begin with, to develop as the story gets written); but... when you do something as sprawling and as convoluted as the Eternal Champion cycle, with its enormous ramifications and various growing philosophical points, then having everything planned ahead very much puts you in a straitjacket, and it shows. A lot of Moorcock is very conscious, but I'd say the heart of his work is often unconscious and comes from within; and this is what gives his work conviction as a whole (individual works may or may not have that, but taken in its entirety, it's definitely there).

I meant the book im reading has so many complex ideas that its alittle surprising that he didnt plan everything beforehand.

But at you say, as reader you can almost see by the way he writes that it does work better for him that way.

[Urlik]

Prince Gaynor is a great character

I have a few things about him I'd like to discuss further but I shall leave them until Connavar has finished the chronicles of Corum as the topics are full of spoilers