Jedi / Sith / The Force

[C Of K]

Although Luke did say he turned to the dark side, in Dark Empire, in order to understand his father better, that wasn't really his only reason.

He found out that Emperor Palpatine discovered the means for immortality (he existed as pure dark energy within the force) Palpatine was using clone bodies to regain physical form every time he perished. Luke knew that if he killed the Emperor when he had the chance, the evil master would just return again.

Luke deduced that to discover the Emperor's secrets, he had to get close to him, sort of like a "secret agent" type thing. But the Emperor knew Luke's motives, and trusted that the dark side would do it's job and change Luke forever.

And indeed, Luke really did fall to the dark side through and through. It wasn't some sort of thing where he could switch back to the light at a moments notice. He learned dark teachings from the Emperor, and decided life and death as the Imperial Supreme Commander. Not only that, he was responsible for the deaths of countless rebels.

In some respects afterward, Luke was still very dark natured as a jedi master. If you read the Timothy Zahn books, and then the Kevin J Anderson books afterward, there is a distinct change in Luke. He's humble, but also very brooding, closed up, and almost alone. Those are the effects the dark side had on him.

[dustinzgirl]

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

My main question / discussion point here is just how useful are the modern Jedi in comparison to the old order??? The old order had a thousand years + of knowledge and training the new Jedi just have what Luke knows plus discovering things for themselves.

It can be argued that that is exactly why the old order fell.

[C Of K]

Ha! I somehow missed this question earlier.

Originally Posted by Huttman

By the way, where is the character Kip from?

Kyp Durron is from Kevin J Anderson's Jedi Academy Trilogy. He's become quite a character by now.

[Joel007]

I think Mara Jade had a very good effect on Luke, it's possible that he was having personal crises just so the author could make the Jade-Skywalker thing work

[Majimaune]

Mara does do something to Luke but I haven't read any of the ones where they are married so I wont continue on that line without someone else.

[Harleyquin]

Well lets say that its not nessesarily family thats brought people back to the light side, but rather "love" that brought them back - the love for somebody which was more important than anything else...

of course we all know Vader fell because of love and only later redemed by it

The reason the Jedi banned marage / relationships I would assume is their whole philospphy of avoiding "strong" emotions. Vulcan's would naturally make the best jedi If we allowed all "jedi" to have access to relationships then we are bringing in quite deliberately a mechanism for the sith to take advantage of.

as unrealistic as it seems to me that a Sith is dedicated to kill there teacher to prove their strength (we know Sith draw their power through emotion - so wouldnt it be great to make them love so powerfully then remove the love like killing padme so anakin would always hate???). We therefor assume that the Jedi Order must be akin to a monastic order - forever forsworn to give up passion and love etc - unlike most monastic orders though the Jedi are pushed into the community making them vulnerable to emotional issues.
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WARNING WARNING WARNING DO NOT READ BELOW IF YOU HAVE NOT READ LEGACY OF THE FORCE - WARNING WILL ROBINSON WARNING!!!!!!!
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**** Spoiler *****
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Darth Ceadus deliberately pushes Ben to attack him after the death of mommie, trying to make him hi apprentice - it takes Luke to pull Ben back - so if we pop a cap in Lukes brain pan do we now push Ben to a place where he has no strong emotional ties to pull him back to the light (auntie Leigha not being THAT close) ???

[Joel007]

I think the main reason the Jedi tried to avoid romantic relationships is that their tenets are to maintain order, and strong emotions cause a bias in decision making.

[C Of K]

This...

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

WARNING WARNING WARNING DO NOT READ BELOW IF YOU HAVE NOT READ LEGACY OF THE FORCE - WARNING WILL ROBINSON WARNING!!!!!!!
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**** Spoiler *****
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...had me rolling. But I didn't listen to it. Sorry. I just couldn't help myself.

[Huttman]

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

The reason the Jedi banned marage / relationships I would assume is their whole philospphy of avoiding "strong" emotions. Vulcan's would naturally make the best jedi.

I'm not sure a general banning of strong emotions is good thing. No, actually I'm quite sure of it. If one is not passionate about life, what is right, doing good, helping others, etc, then I believe that one does not really have strong convictions either, being able to be turned in their motives. The Sith had passion about many things. Motive people, it's motive that makes all the difference, and what one does, of course. Passion and strong emotion are not the enemy, it is how one balances and maintains them in their lives.

And as for Vulcans, even with all their logic, had become a rather narrow minded race of people. It was Spock, who through is human side (and conflicts with that), friends, and course of life, who became one of the wisest Vulcans ever, being able to understand both sides of the emotional coin well.

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

We therefor assume that the Jedi Order must be akin to a monastic order - forever forsworn to give up passion and love etc - unlike most monastic orders though the Jedi are pushed into the community making them vulnerable to emotional issues.

In the English language, or seemingly in the basic standard language of Star Wars, there is only one word for love and it seems to cover a wide gambit of everything that that word could mean. Here on Earth, in most other languages, there are many different words for love, as the love for a friend, enemy, food, chocolate, career, music, spouse, or God all have thier own unique feelings and desires akin to each. While an unbalance in just about any one of those can prove faulty, there is usually the biggest conflict of interest when it comes to a potential mate's love, stirring the most conflict in oneself. Perhaps that is why the Jedi order banned it. It might be hard to keep that one in check, but not impossible, in my opinion.

[Delvo]

Originally Posted by Huttman

If I understand that correctly... If a Jedi had an immediate family, he might be more biased in protecting them rather than others. If that is not what you meant...

It isn't. Here's what I meant...

Imagine a world where a few people can use the Force but there's no Jedi Order (yet; way back in history here). These few people can manipulate other people's minds and behavior, steal information from anyone, detect an attempt to act against them in any way before it happens, destroy or alter the functionality of any equipment, win any fight, and affect the outcomes of large-scale battles and political procedings. Some fraction would behave harmlessly anyway, but some fraction would not, and what is there to stop them from various abuses of the powerless masses that surround them? Only the other Force-users can stand in their way. This would compel many of the benevolent Force-users to feel responsible to not only be harmless themselves, but also actively counter the malevolent ones for the good of everyone else.

So they'd naturally want to team up for various advantages that that would give them in the goal of fighting other Force-users to protect the powerless from them (including not just "other Force-users", but even themselves!), and that would become the original Jedi Order.

That's all old stuff to me; I've long thought that the Jedi Order's primary purpose was to protect the powerless masses from the powerful few, by keeping those few busy and disciplined and under control, and peacekeeping assignments like trade negotiations and bodyguarding of dignitaries are secondary or even a sub-part of the primary purpose (by keeping them busy and giving them a feeling of useful contribution and duty).

What's newish here, for me, is the idea that the rule against reproduction could also have been a part of that purpose, because of the likelihood for young people who are strong with the Force to come from parents who are.

[C Of K]

Originally Posted by Delvo

the idea that the rule against reproduction could also have been a part of that purpose, because of the likelihood for young people who are strong with the Force to come from parents who are.

Very interesting idea. And perhaps the imbalance in the force had something to do with all this. I remember reading somewhere (possibly in the novelization of TPM, or perhaps in a source book) that by the time of TPM the ten thousand jedi that existed was a small number compared to what the order had been used to in the past.

Apparently more and more masters were refusing to take padawans. More and more younglings were being sent to do farm work or other jobs. Then there were the padawans that possibly didn't pass the trials...and yet the jedi were possibly spread very thin in performing their duties on a galactic scale.

I'm unsure exactly what was going on with all this, as I don't know when the order banned marital relationships for jedi, or when the number of jedi began to diminish. I don't even know when the prophesy about Anakin was written, or when the discovery of the imbalance was made.

[Majimaune]

Originally Posted by C Of K

This......had me rolling. But I didn't listen to it. Sorry. I just couldn't help myself.

Same. Things like that make you curious.

I'm not sure if the masters were refusing to take padawans or if they couldn't take padawans due to what they were doing.

Lots of the jedi in training pulled out before they reached the rank of knight or master.

[Huttman]

I'm not sure where this comes from, I must have read it somewhere, but the original Jedi order was a brotherhood of different aliens at peace with each other, the Force, and non-Force users. I believe they always had the role as peace-keepers for those non-Forcers who started trouble, but then somewhere down the line the Sith were created by renegade Jedi who did not follow the order and became hungry for power. That was the start of the first Jedi/Sith war, where there were thousands of Sith. The Sith also, being so drunk with power, started to fight one another, being almost wiped out by themselves and the Jedi. There was one or two remaining when they decided to go into hiding and survive the Sith line like we see in the movies now. Anyone else...?

P.S. Good idea, Delvo. I'm not sure where marriage banning would fit into that either. More ideas for prequels perhaps.

[Majimaune]

I'm sure that Sith were once a race (and that isn't just going off KotOR) of Force powerful beings. Humaniods.

[C Of K]

The Sith were a race of people, some of them were likely force sensitive. But it was the Lords of the Sith (renegade jedi) that came to dominate them, forming the Sith empire. Somewhere down the line, Darth Bane, one of many Dark Lords, had his own war against the jedi and the republic. They pretty much brought the jedi to their knees, but a cowardly and foolish sith lord led the others of their number astray from Darth Bane's plans and ruined Darth Bane's efforts.

Subsequently, Darth Bane, and a young girl survived that war. In the story it had seemed that she had no talent for using the force, but when her talents began to show, she fell, and became Darth Bane's only apprentice. From that day forth there would be only two Sith Lords.

I'm not sure if the masters were refusing to take padawans or if they couldn't take padawans due to what they were doing.

Some of them I think were actually refusing, but not all. Qui Gon almost refused Obi Wan, and did everything in his power to see to it that Young Obi would be sent to some agricultural facility. Obi just wouldn't be denied. It's a pretty good story. (I read this in some scholastic book after TPM came out, but I'm certain it's as cannon as any of the other Clone Wars era stories.)