The Final Fantasy Series Thread

[Commonmind]

Yeah, I've heard as much as well. Still, the game feels like a huge mystery (but I'm glad for it, like I said).

As for Nomura, I'm not too concerned with what he'll give us. Kingdom Hearts is one of my favorite franchises. (Though if I had my way I'd erase the "The Bouncer" characters from existence, no offense to Nomura-san.)

[Lith]

FFvs13 isn't looking interesting (granted though that we've seen not much of it). I wish Square would get away from the 15-yr-old pretty boys. I know their profiles list their ages as older, but they still look 15 at most. They had a good thing going with Cloud and Kadaj in the early stages of Advent Children, and when they revised their look, they were younger and much prettier.

Is it so painful to have a hero (or for that matter, a heroine) that's old enough to buy alcohol?

As for the rest of the game, I've got preliminary forebodings that it'll be little more than an arcade fighter with previous FF characters.

[Cayal]

Originally Posted by Lith

Is it so painful to have a hero (or for that matter, a heroine) that's old enough to buy alcohol?

Because you can buy alcohol in a game? What's it matter?

[Sephiroth]

Hmm, I'm not sure if I like this intimation of KoH-style battles in FF.


Well actually, I am sure. I'm dead against it. We don't need that. We like the way the battles go in FF games, it's part of the reason we buy them..........

KoH is a great game, but it's....different.


I worry about the way things are going too. For me, XII was a big let down overall.

[Commonmind]

XII was a big letdown for a lot of folks, but -- unlike yourself Seph -- it's one of the reasons I'm less worried for the well-being of the franchise. The series had grown stagnant, and while the FF formula is as tried-and-true as they come, the constant recycling of gameplay mechanics was becoming tiresome. At the very least the direction they took with FFXII was a sort of admission by SE that they understood they needed to look at the franchise as a whole and consider how to move it forward; as it was, they were running in place.

As for the art style, it is what it is and it's always been that way. The first target audience for any SE game is still going to be Japan, and that's the style which their particular culture desires. I'm not too concerned with a particular character's outward appearance as I understand and accept that fact. What I do dislike is poor localization - something most of SE's titles have suffered from. I want a story that's cohesive, easy to understand and follow, and not riddled with cheap thrills and gimmicky plot twists or big gaping holes due to poor translation. FFXII (at the very least) attempted to attain a level of maturity not seen in previous FF's and it shows. The localization work was some of the best in previous years - unfortunately the drastic thematic change left too many long-time fans reeling. Quite a few of them simply couldn't get past the way the game was presented and therefore never really took time to appreciate the new storytelling approach.

As for Versus, it's not going to be a traditional FF title, that much is sure. But had Kingdom Hearts been called "Final Fantasy: The Disney Adventures," (and a Final Fantasy title was considered for the work in the early stages) I'm sure it would've still received the accolades it deserved. Just because Versus carries the FF moniker but doesn't necessarily conform to the gameplay paradigms, let's not right it off.

[Sephiroth]

Oh hey, I have to say, gameplay mechanics is not what let me down. The limited world design, lack of character depth and complete absence of story (IMO) were my main concerns. I liked the battle system, despite one or two minor quibbles. And I would like to see them develop that system further, rather than losing all our menus and commands entirely.

I really didn't see a new storytelling approach, though. I only saw the veneer of a story painted over what was undoubtedly a step forward in gameplay. For me, this story never got off the ground, and I never got to know who any of the characters really were. Even by the end, I didn't care about them OR what was going to happen. And while the game itself could be played for quite some time due to all the side-quests, it feels like if you just take the story itself, it's over too quickly. I completed the game by accident! I couldn't believe that I was at the end, it felt like I'd only done 3/4 of the plot. And where was the end dungeon? You get to that last place, and you don't even have to 'do' anything. Except for defeat Vayne, which takes all of two seconds.

Interesting how you and I had such different experiences playing the same game.

One of my biggest problems, perhaps, was that the gaming shows and magazines were making out like XII was almost perfect, and saying that it would 'restore the faith of jaded old FF fans'. It didn't do that for me at all!


I am excited by Versus, however, despite what I've said. More so than about XIII, which I get the feeling might be 'more of the same' when it comes down to it. I do want them to innovate. But I don't want to lose the things that made me enjoy these games in the first place.

[Commonmind]

Note that I used the word "attempted." I personally don't feel they achieved what I believe they were going after, but I can appreciate the effort they put into it - and this is part of that new storytelling approach I was speaking of. What I mean by that is they were less reliant on cheap plot devices to manifest drama. In previous FF titles there always seemed to be a new twist in the story just when there was a lull in the overarching one - as happens to some authors who write themselves into a corner, they often use the metaphoric "hail-mary" to get themselves out of it without retooling the work or coming up with a believable, less "cheap" resolution. Another aspect of this new story-telling approach would be that they tried telling a larger story, a conflict between several regions of the world rather than between a single protagonist and antagonist.

And you saw exactly where they failed in that case. You felt you had reached the end of the game by accident, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that they fell back on that hero vs. ultra-powerful villain device. There was no real resolution to the ongoing plot and I think SE couldn't figure out how to tie all the strings together and deliver an end that was synonymous with the story it had been building up until that point. I would've been more pleased had they left out the cliche multi-form boss battle and had the characters interact with a larger conflict in a non-traditional way. It may not have been as immediately satisfying as the normal end-of-game boss battle, but in the scheme of things it might have inspired a feeling of resolution, thereby giving a sense of lasting satisfaction that outweighs the former one.

Where the characters are concerned, I had my favorites, but they definitely weren't as memorable as some previous characters in the franchise. Again, I attribute this to SE trying to tell a story with more scope; they paid too much attention to exterior conflict and didn't build upon the characters enough to give them any solidity. They were mere observers, point of view devices used to deliver the story - they were not main characters. And you could tell there were times where SE was struggling with the balance of old and new. There were times they fell back on their old formula and many times where they neglected it altogether and paid little attention to the characters.

I really don't think we had that different of an experience. I believe we were both looking at the same painting, but appreciating it in different ways. I saw what the artist was striving for and found it inspiring, despite the quality of the completed work; you felt the image lacked a certain polish inherent in the artist's other works. Either way, we both agree it wasn't as good as it could've been.

[Sephiroth]

Very well put, actually.

I started out by being excited about differences I perceived in the plot style, and one of the things I liked was the 'maturity' you speak of, and the attempt to portray a more nuanced, 'real' world. And I think you're right to say that they lost track of this attempt, and fell back on their old formula a bit (in the final third of the story especially, the whole Giruvegan episode seemed a bit incongruous when compared to what had come before - and even then, they didn't have the courage of their convictions to take the story on from there and make it truly a hero vs. ultra-powerful villain ending instead. It fell somewhere in-between).

I tend to be hypercritical of SE, because I expect too much. I'm always desperate for an experience that matches the one I had playing VII, and so far I haven't had it (X came closest, but again, fell away at the end, although I was still satisfied overall).

I think you're right that, having made the bold decision to go with this new approach to storylining, they should have thought outside the box a little more when contriving a resolution. They might have amazed us with their audacity and innovation. Instead, they left me feeling somewhat hollow about the whole thing.

Characterwise...Balthier had a bit of life to him, and Fran was quite interesting, and well voiced, but I still would have liked a bit more. The rest...I found nondescript. By the end, I felt I still didn't know Vaan at all, yet I'd been playing as him the whole time. I will admit that SE deserves credit for attempting a new approach, but stories, even large-scale ones on an epic scale, rely upon characterisation. I hope they have put a bit more effort into that side of XIII and Versus.

But yes, you're right. We don't see it so differently after all.

[Commonmind]

Coincidentally, Balthier and Fran were my two favorites as well.

Another commonality we share is our opinion of SE. I've the same exact mentality as you do. I grew up playing Sqaresoft titles and I'm extremely critical of the products they put out. Each time I pick up a new SE title I do so with conflicting feelings of anticipation and skepticism.

Back to FFXIII, we'll have to wait and see. There's always been a pattern with the franchise, at least beyond the 16-bit era, where the first game on a new platform is always the most ambitious and therefore the most satisfying. FF VII was, arguably, the most satisfying FF experience on the Playstation; X was, undoubtedly, a far more satisfying experience than FF X-2, FF XI and FFXII. Hopefully this whole thing will come full circle and XIII (and all of its iterations) will blow our socks off - of course there's the chance that it could be too ambitious and end up being a huge disappointment, but I'm trying to remain optimistic.

[Sephiroth]

Amen. I hadn't thought of it like that. But yes, first PS3 release...fingers crossed!


The only word I would quibble with in your summation is arguably. I'm incapable of being reasonable where FFVII is concerned. For me, neither VIII nor IX can possibly hold a candle to it, much as I enjoyed them both for what they are. But that's an old story by now, even in this thread. Seph is obsessed with FFVII. How appropriate. How sad.

[Commonmind]

What can I say, I'm guilty of being a diplomat when it comes to the original Playstation titles. Where it's general consensus that FFX was the best FF to grace the PS2 (okay, there are definitely some wackos out there who loved FF X-2, no offense ladies), there are those fans that would argue VIII and IX were more memorable than VII. I've played Devil's Advocate in a few of those same conversations, but while I might have enjoyed IX's charm or VIII's...quirkiness, VII was the quintessential Final Fantasy experience - the first "high" if you will, one that both the fans and SE themselves are trying to experience again.

[Sephiroth]

Yeah, I've been in a few of those conversations. I'm one of the purps who won't give ground. Heh.

Oh, I'm a reasonable soul really, and I liked both VIII and IX. But VII...changed me...if that doesn't sound too melodramatic and poncy a thing to say about a video game. It inserted itself into my psyche somehow, such was the connection I felt with the world and the characters whilst playing it. I have never had another experience like that, before or since. And the music...the score is just phenomenal.

Every time there's a new release, I buy the game, come home, turn out the lights, jack the sound up on the TV and get closer to the screen...and away I go again. Hoping, beyond all hope, that this time will be like the first........

Not asking for much, then.

[Commonmind]

Not at all

[Lith]

Seph, I had never imagined you might be irrationally in love with FF7.

I suppose I have to come in here now and defend FF12. It really is the most ambitious one yet, it's only a pity that it took so long in development, and that's part of the problem people have with it, I think. It stops rather abruptly probably because the director got fired and the new crew was given orders to wrap it up and get it to market before the PS3 came out. 5 years is too long a development time for any game, really.

As for the story, I really liked it. It felt a bit like Dune (which ironically I don't like) and a bit like A Song of Ice and Fire. It really felt like the product of a more mature mind. 10 was a very good game, but it had a few absolute WTF?!? moments. I didn't have any moments like that in the game, with the story or with the game itself, which I'm infinitely thankful for. Hang on, there was one moment... "I'm Captain Basch fon Ronsenburg of Dalmasca!"... yeah.

There are some things in games that if you know about them in real life, it can make games nearly unplayable. Like geography and architecture (maybe not big on other's lists but they are on mine)- the world is more believably constructed than any game I've played. Too many games rely on a single path through a 3-D environment, which is both unrealistic and disappointing, since it means they're really 3-D side-scrollers rather than true 3-D.

There are things in storytelling and history (human culture, etc.) that are the same, but I'm not going to argue them here because it's been too long now since I've played either game and I'm forgetting details.

Furthermore, FF12 rocks because it doesn't have TIDUS. I wanted to strangle him rather badly thorughout the game, for his bad voice acting and even worse fashion sense. Vaan's still not my ideal lead, but the annoyance factor was much lower. And I liked ALL the characters in 12. Usually in a game there are one or two which I never use (RedXIII, Zell, Quina, Kimahri, etc.) but I played all the characters willingly. I was only annoyed at Vossler's gambits. I didn't like him running off on me and dying all the time, forcing one of my characters to constantly heal him instead of wacking at bad guys themselves.

I might add though, that it wasn't until well into 12 that I thought it edged 10 out. I was very surprised, as I hadn't been looking forward to the game at all.

Oh, and FFX-2 has some interesting things going on underneath the surface glitter, but you have to dig rather deep to get to them (there's an underlying story or theme which is never mentioned in the actual game or by the developers). It's an odd sort of game, really. And yeah, the girl in me loved the dress-up parts and the monkey-matching contest. Guys get nearly every other game on the market...

[Commonmind]

The abruptness of the game's ending had little to do with Matsuno leaving the project. If games were made chronologically, from beginning (opening scene) to end (credits), you might have had a point - they're not, however, and so the abrupt conclusion remains the result of poor execution. If you're going to say Matsuno's departure affected the development, you'd have to say that it affected the quality of the entire product, as that would be far more accurate when it comes to game design. It's not like writing a book, where an author passes on and another comes in to finish the work from where the first author left off.

Let's remember that an FF title is the sum of its parts. It's not a specific piece of the puzzle, but the overall image that makes the experience memorable. As you alluded to yourself, every game is a mixed bag of good and bad. It's how it all comes together that counts. XII, on a whole, was simply less enjoyable (for us) than previous titles. And there's really no need to defend the game; I don't think either one of us were saying it was a tragic failure or a huge hunk of crap, only that it lacked something inherent in other SE games - I'd call it polish; or rather, cohesiveness. I'm probably using too many analogies here, but think of Final Fantasy as a brand of wine. Though we didn't necessarily enjoy this Merlot compared to the Savignon and Shiraz we've had before it, it's still a fine wine.

As for the underlying messages in X-2, I fail to see what they were and I'd go so far as to say any thematic messages extracted from that sideshow of a game are purely accidental. Even the very blatant message was difficult to discern - though it didn't help that the story demanded my undivided attention whilst simultaneously wagging polygonally attractive bottoms in my face the majority of the time.