Howdy... and help!

[Lord Mureth]

Hi everyone, just found this forum... WOW! I'm so pleased that there's actually something out there for us aspiring writers.

I've pretty much finished a rather epic dark comic fantasy, and I'd appreciate a little advice as regards submission to agents. I've read loads of books, looked at loads of websites, and have read agent's submission guidelines; and yet I'm STILL unclear about a few things!

Okay, I'll try to keep this short. Unlike my manuscript... which is my first question. The story is approx 205k words; is this unpublishably long for a debut author? I'm guessing it is... to the point where I've pretty much convinced myself that it needs to be split into two books (fortunately, I've got a good break at 120k, which gives me the luxury of expanding the second part - which I'd love to do anyway!) Anyway, is this the correct assumption? I know that it'd be damned hard to get something of this length published in its entirety, but is it impossible?

Secondly, I'm pretty confused about a certain submission point. Since most agents/publishers want the MSS double-spaced on submission, how does that apply to the number of pages they would want? If they ask for the first 50 pages, do I send in MY original first 50 pages and then double-space them; or do I send in the fist 50 double-spaced pages?

Finally, what about presentation? I've sent a few submissions off already, with the first three chapters unbound save for an elastic band; a stapled two-page synopsis, a covering letter, CV and header sheet for the MSS itself (with of course an SAE!) - in a gold garment bag, which is conveniently A4 sized. The bags are something my business uses on a regular basis, and look nice; plus they're free...

Just wondering if anyone else has any better ideas for their submissions? Am I doing anything that might annoy an agent with my packages?

[removed by I, Brian]

Haven't, alas, got time to post more here tonight (work and all that...) but would appreciate any help - thanks!

[I, Brian]

Sorry, your post was caught by the anti-spam filters, so had to remove your link or else say bye to your post.

I think you're going to be best served by reading this board:
http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/publishing/

A lot of your questions are answered directly there.

[Birol]

Originally Posted by Lord Mureth

Okay, I'll try to keep this short. Unlike my manuscript... which is my first question. The story is approx 205k words; is this unpublishably long for a debut author? I'm guessing it is... to the point where I've pretty much convinced myself that it needs to be split into two books (fortunately, I've got a good break at 120k, which gives me the luxury of expanding the second part - which I'd love to do anyway!) Anyway, is this the correct assumption? I know that it'd be damned hard to get something of this length published in its entirety, but is it impossible?

Nothing is impossible, but it is incredibly unlikely that a 205K novel would be published by a first time author. Definitely consider splitting it, especially since you indicate you easily can.

Secondly, I'm pretty confused about a certain submission point. Since most agents/publishers want the MSS double-spaced on submission, how does that apply to the number of pages they would want? If they ask for the first 50 pages, do I send in MY original first 50 pages and then double-space them; or do I send in the fist 50 double-spaced pages?

All manuscripts are double-spaced. If someone asks for a certain number of pages, they're talking about double-spaced, 1-inch margins, in 12-point TNR or Courier New font.

There's no need to run conversion equations on any of the requests you might receive.

Finally, what about presentation? I've sent a few submissions off already, with the first three chapters unbound save for an elastic band; a stapled two-page synopsis, a covering letter, CV and header sheet for the MSS itself (with of course an SAE!) - in a gold garment bag, which is conveniently A4 sized. The bags are something my business uses on a regular basis, and look nice; plus they're free...

Er. Sounds like you're making the agent's life difficult. Have you checked the guidelines of the agent you're submitting to?

Just wondering if anyone else has any better ideas for their submissions? Am I doing anything that might annoy an agent with my packages?

Almost all literary agents have their guidelines -- what they want to receive and how they want to receive it -- on their websites. Find them. Read them. Follow them.

[The Curious Orange]

While there are first time writers writing long debut novels, they do tend to be the exception rather than the rule. You stand a better chance writing fantasy, to be honest, because long does tend to be the staple length for the genre.

I wrote the first draft of my novel without really considering how long it would be. The first draft came in at 265K words. Yeah, it knocked me back, too.

The second draft was 204K words. I'm trying to get it down to under 180K without ripping out the heart of the story. Only when it's about that length would I even consider submitting it. Deleting entire scenes is so much harder than writing them in the first place...

So my advice would be -

1. Only consider splitting it in two if the first half will stand up as a book in it's own right, ie: with a beginning, a middle and an end. If it doesn't have a definitive end, consider writing an ending, of sorts, purely to wrap the first book up, while leaving the major plot threads hanging for book two. Fool's Errand by Robin Hobb is a good example of this. The bulk of the book is set up for the trilogy, with a short mini-plot tacked on the end to give book one a definite close.

2. Edit it. Be brutal with your prose, and shorten the thing. You might actually improve the finished product and increase it's chances of publication.

[Interference]

Yeah, I agree. Reduce and cut. Nothing is ever lost and if they ask for a second book, you can always go back and re-look at those deleted scenes and little gems.

The main thing appears not to antagonise the agency reader. Any excuse and your submission will end up in the wrong pile, sooner rather than later. Try, if you can, to make this first ms as tight and to the point as you can get it. Consider the purpose of each word and take out the ones that delay you making your point. Same for paragraphs and, of course, chapters.

Good luck.

[Lith]

Doesn't 205k words work out to about 400 pages? Isn't that a pretty standard number for a fantasy novel- right smack in the middle?

[Teresa Edgerton]

I don't think so, Lith. Of course it depends on how they format the book, what size type they use, etc. But to give you a rough idea, I turned in a manuscript of about 115,000 words earlier this year, and the uncorrected proof I have sitting on my shelf is 418 pages.

[Lord Mureth]

Hi again,

Thanks for all your advice; much appreciated. I've pretty much edited as I've worked anyway; and while there is obviously going to be something I could cut, there's no way I can actually get the story down to less than 190K minimum, without losing either major plot devices or some utterly stupid bits that really do have to be included, just to lighten what could otherwise be a rather morbid book!

I made the mistake, I guess, of using some other books as benchmarks for length, without initially considering the fact that it's sooooooooo much harder for a debut author to get something of that length published. So it's going to be two books from now on; but as I said, at around the 115-120K mark there's a pretty climatic scene, followed by what would be a nice quick wind-down and lead in to the second part anyway, so it's not a major problem. I agree though that it might be a good idea to see what I can possibly cut from the first part, for possible re-inclusion in the second, might be able to do a bit of that, thanks for the idea Interference!

Sorry for including the link to my myspace; didn't realise they weren't allowed... serves me right for jumping in and posting without reading further first... ooops!

I've been reading endless agents submission guidelines, trust me; the problem I have is not so much what they DO say, it's what they don't say that leaves me confused.

Thanks again for your help, back soon!

[Teresa Edgerton]

Usually, it's best to interpret an agent or editor's requirements literally, rather than trying to make it more complicated than it already is.

Staples are not popular with people who have to open and go through a lot of submissions -- because they can snag your fingers, and sooner or later they will. And people who work at agencies and publishing companies are quite adept at dealing with loose pages, so unless you're sending them rather more than fifty pages you can probably dispense with the rubber band as well.

And the garment bags ... well, things might have changed, but when I was starting out editors advised against anything that might be considered gimmicky in the way of packaging. A padded envelope would probably make a better impression.

[Culhwch]

Not entirely on topic, but I'm just curious... what exactly is a garment bag? That's what I'd call a big plastic number that suits and what-not come back from the drycleaners in. I'm guessing we're not talking about the same thing.

[Lith]

I turned in a manuscript of about 115,000 words earlier this year, and the uncorrected proof I have sitting on my shelf is 418 pages.

Is that double-spaced? Because I've always heard a page is about 500 words. But I guess it's different for novels than for reports... (which makes perfect sense)

And in which case I definitely need to cut some stuff out of my manuscript, which is hovering right around 200k. Some of it's coming out already to tighten up the structure. I suppose I ought to look for other places to tighten it up as well. I don't want it to be a tome.

[Culhwch]

I think a rough number is about 300-350 words per page in a novel. Generally when I've done counts that's about what it comes to (yes, I lead a very exciting life...).

[Teresa Edgerton]

As I said, it depends on the formatting and the size of the print. It could be anywhere from 300 to almost 500 words per page (but the high end is far less common), so that makes it hard to estimate the length of the average fantasy novel going just by the page count. And even if we could come up with a reliable average by taking a sampling of genre books in stores right at this moment ... at best that would tell us what publishers were buying 18-24 months ago.

If you want to know what length publishers are likely to accept from first-time novelists now, it would be best to ask someone like John Jarrold -- when he gets back -- since he is the one making deals with publishers, and knows what they are currently buying.

[Interference]

Am I totally wrong in saying that (and I read this somewhere) 80,000 was about the average acceptable length for a first novel? I think it was only a guideline, but it bothered me when my ms went up to 100,000.

Of course, as Teresa says, that might have been true for that week. This week might something else altogether.

I think you could probably ignore page count issues, though, until you get the contract. And then, whatever the publisher asks for, you do. The first step has to be to do everything you're asked in the guidelines, be a good little slave and bite your tongue a lot.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by Interference

Am I totally wrong in saying that (and I read this somewhere) 80,000 was about the average acceptable length for a first novel?

It must have been very old advice (which can be a problem with things you read on the internet)or referring to some other genre, or just general piffle. Practically no one is writing 80,000 word fantasies for adult readers these days. Those longer novels we've been talking about may be problematic for first time authors, but I'm sure you're quite safe in the 100,000-120,000 word range. I wouldn't worry about that at all.