I give in!!

[dwndrgn]

Originally Posted by Green

I didn't think it was overly complex, just a bit average. Too many clichés in there (big hounds of shadow, floating mountains, magic system based on a deck of cards, crazy puppet, etc).

Green, I'm not arguing your point but I'm curious to know of other epic fantasies that carry a magic system based on a deck of cards as well as a crazy puppet. I just don't recall running into these elements in other works. Now, I know that the Wild Cards series is out there but that was more a play on Wild than Cards and really didn't have a whole lot to do with cards - and that was the standard 52 card playing deck in any case, not the tarot. Crazy puppets I seem to recall have ocurred once or twice in some horror flicks but I'm not well-read enough in that genre to say whether it is cliche or not. I don't recall any that I've seen in epic fantasy - though again, It could be that I just haven't read the right books. Anyway, I'm not attacking your statement that these are cliched, I was just wondering where else you see these elements (they might be books I'd like to check out!).

[Green]

Well, maybe not in specific fantasy books (or series), but definitely still clichés. Magic cards, Taroh, mad puppets/dolls/clowns, floating mountains, big bad hounds, young captain eager to prove himself... all these things appear in bloody hundreds of different books/films/comics/TV shows/whatever. Do these fantasy elements/themes have to be taken from a specific fantasy book (and all of them from the same book) to be a fantasy cliché? I don't think they do. Taroh cards have been done to death over the decades! And it's pretty clear that's what the DoD is based on

Nothing wrong with using old themes, as we all know, as long as they're done well, and from a fresh angle. These features of GotM left me feeling somewhat bored and unimpressed. I didn't think they were done in an interesting way; they felt cheap.

SPOILER for Midnight Tides (I think)

As for the floating mountains thing, as an example of how he improved on it (for me)... he took this concept of a magic floating mountain, and kind of gave it a reason for being. It was created by the K'Chain'chamaileliliesill using their magic. So he gave a bunch of dinosaurs a mastery of physics and gravity, all wrapped up in magic clothes. Now that I thought was interesting

[Culhwch]

Originally Posted by Green

K'Chain'chamaileliliesill

Tell me that's an exageration, or I'm afraid I won't be revisiting Erikson.

I have to say, the whole floating mountain thing did me in too. Come on, a floating mountain? I'll believe in some weird stuff, but that's a bit much. But having said that, I've never been a big one for magic-heavy books.

[quidscribis]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

I'm still intending to give Erikson another shot. I have to say it wasn't any confusion on my part that drove me away, but rather just a lack of interest and a failure to engage on any level with the story or characters. Which is a shame because Erikson is clearly a gifted writer. I do come up against the 'persevere, it gets better' argument fairly regularly here, but honestly I do think this is a failing by the author. You shouldn't have to be promised better things to come to get you through the mire of the introductory book. I wonder if GotM was that little bit more accessible, just how much more popular Erikson would be...

I'm with you, except on the confusion part. I was confused by the too many characters and whatnot, and I stopped reading about 2/3 of the way through. It just bogged me down and I couldn't get past it.

I also don't like the "persevere, it gets better" argument. It should grab and hold from the beginning, and this one doesn't entirely do it for me, either. I persevered for as long as I did simply because we bought the first five books in the series, and I'm cheap - hate a waste of money. Luckily, now dh is reading them, and he's loving them - but he's also got a mind like a steel trap and can keep the details straight, which I can't.

Originally Posted by Culhwch

Tell me that's an exageration, or I'm afraid I won't be revisiting Erikson.

Seriously, no kidding. That was another of my complaints - too many confusing nonsensical names that, quite frankly, I have a difficult time slotting into my memory in such a way that I can create order out of it.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one. Dh loves the books so much that I was starting to get a complex.

[Rosemary]

Was it a floating 'mountain'? Are there not similar things in Science Fiction?
Personally, I didn't think it was strange at all.

As to the many nonsensical names, it might have been easier for some readers (me!) if Erikson had not introduced most of them at the start of the book.

[Sparks the Knave]

To everyones credit that said 'persevere, keep going the book gets better', they were largely right. the book does get better as it goes along and I am enjoying it for what it's worth. If it keeps the upward trend I can see this being a series that I will enjoy and indeed be worth reading, which makes the start more annoying as I can tell it may have stopped a few readers dead in their tracks over the years.

[Green]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

Tell me that's an exageration, or I'm afraid I won't be revisiting Erikson.

Only your conscience can decide that for you It seems pretty clear you're not that fussed anyway.

[Sparks the Knave]

I have to say I'm glad I stuck with it as even with work and other things getting in the way, the book has shaped into a damn good read.

Character description is not as strong as I love in most of my reads but the story is flowing nicely now and the plot hooks are starting to work and interest me that is for sure.

My biggest dislike about the book is actually Tattersail. I can't seem to in any way shape or form start to like her? I get the feeling that as a reader we might be meant to be backing her and all I want is for her to find either a quick death or something else equally changing so she can act less cow like :S

I'm unsure if I'm alone in that sentiment?

[Werthead]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

Tell me that's an exageration, or I'm afraid I won't be revisiting Erikson.

I have to say, the whole floating mountain thing did me in too. Come on, a floating mountain? I'll believe in some weird stuff, but that's a bit much. But having said that, I've never been a big one for magic-heavy books.

It's K'Chain Che'Malle. They're not in it much. I thought the floating mountain was a Dragonlance homage, but apparently Erikson and Esslemont came up with it before those books were released.

However, given that Malazan is the most magic-heavy series I've ever read, it's possible the books are not for you.

[Rane Longfox]

Originally Posted by Sparks the Knave

My biggest dislike about the book is actually Tattersail. I can't seem to in any way shape or form start to like her? I get the feeling that as a reader we might be meant to be backing her and all I want is for her to find either a quick death or something else equally changing so she can act less cow like :S

I'm unsure if I'm alone in that sentiment?

Hmm... a lot of the characters are ambiguous in this way. Either they're doing good stuff, but are really annoying, or are likeable but generally evil And Erikson delights in writing annoying characters. There are more to come from there, I'm afraid. Wait till you meet Felisin or the Mhybe The way I see it, they fit into the story quite well anyway, so it doens't matter.

It may be annoying to hear (I certainly get annoyed at myself for saying it so much) but there are very few black-or-white characters in his books. With the occasional exception, they all have good and bad traits, which is one of the attractions of the books for me.

[Sparks the Knave]

I have to say the book has really stepped up a few gears in many ways, the writing seems to get better the further you get in, the characters become more interesting and the story becomes fantastic. Had a lot of early annoyances but they seem to have all dropped away and whats left is just a really good read.

[nixie]

I never had problems with GOTM, I was hooked after the first few pages. Like everyone else says the series keeps getting better

[KiwiBird]

Tattersail is not my favourite as well, however i have no idea how you like Ganoes Paran, i dislike the guy, always whining and complaining and thinking boring thoughts. Only Felesin is more grueling to read about. I kinda like Tavore though ^^.

[Sparks the Knave]

***possible Spoilers***



haha, I did like paran, that was until he got it on with Tattersail, then I instantly disliked him as if he was somehow infected by her annoying-ness :S

[chopper]

Originally Posted by Sparks the Knave

***possible Spoilers***



haha, I did like paran, that was until he got it on with Tattersail, then I instantly disliked him as if he was somehow infected by her annoying-ness :S

well, i'm way behind you still, but don't worry it's a re-read (after several years, a second attempt at the north face...)

Tattersail doesn't seem all that annoying to me. Hairlock, on the other hand... and Paran is just a very nondescript bloke, all told. Nothing special.

I think I understand the Warrens a little better this time.