what are orc creatures ??

[magician2magici]

hello everyone

first of all i'm new here , so i'm sorry if my topic is in wrong place or something , but i hope it isn't

orcs
i have heard this word first at lord of the rings, then i've become fascinated to it , but till now i don't know what they are

so what do you think of orcs ??

anyway i hope you can accept me here , thanls

salam...

el-saher>>

[Peter Graham]

Hi,

Welcome to the forum!

I'm not a massive expert on the subject of orcs, but I think I'm right in saying that Tolkien "invented" the word, although I have a feeling it is based on an old Norse word.

"Orc" is just another word for "goblin". I don't know how far this needs explaining, but goblins are common throughout the folklore culture of the Germanic language groups (including English). Descriptions vary, but as a general rule they are the bad guys. They usually live in forests and are creatures of the night. They are the enemies of humans, whom they raid and despoil whenever possible. They are often depicted as green-skinned and warty, with long fingers, pointy noses and sharp teeth. They are cruel but cowardly. They prefer the vulnerable enemy to the well-prepared one.

Tolkien's orcs are a bit more organised and a bit tougher, but if you read "The Hobbit", the goblins of the Misty Mountains are far more in keeping with the goblins of folklore.

Hope this helps!

Regards,

Peter

[magician2magici]

greetings,
goblins , yes , i've heard of them , you know i've imagined they are branches from orcs ? wow , tolkien still surprises me , lol.

so they are nearly the same , human enemies , man eaters , bad dirty life , good description you make , and sure i've known a lot i don't before..

thanks for your post,,

salam..
el-saher..

[Aes]

@Peter: I don't know if I'd class orcs and goblins as the same creatures.

In pretty much every fantasy setting I've been exposed to, goblins have been small, somewhat-cowardly creatures. In some settings, they're really smart, with a love for gadgets, while in others, they're stupid and filthy -- the bottom-feeders of your typical fantasy world.

Orcs, on the other hand, are usually portrayed as slightly larger and tougher than humans, never as intelligent, and more militant. As for what they look like, I could try to describe orcs generally, but it's easier to just suggest a google image search, since almost no two worlds ever describe them the same way, aside from ugly, dirty, buff, warlike, dim-witted, and barbaric.

[Peter Graham]

Hello Aes,

I can feel myself being sucked back to my teenage years..........

I think it's fair to say that orcs and goblins have ended up as different things, but a lot of that is down to role playing games. Perhaps you disagree, but I think that Tolkien always intended them to be the same thing (and it's really up to him, as "orc" was his invention, even if the RPG's never credit him with it).

It's been a long time since I read it, but I'm pretty sure that orc and goblin are expressly used as synonyms in "The Hobbit."

In LOTR, the goblins of the Misty Mountains become into the orcs of Moria, but essentially they are the same thing.

I think I'd be very wary of any author who used "orc" in their book. It'd be a bit like using "Morlock" - a word only really relevant in the context of the book for which it was originally coined. Goblins, trolls and ogres are different, as they belong to a common mythology and aren't the invention of one author.

Time for a lie down!

Peter

[ras'matroi]

I think I remember that in tLotR there was mentioned that someone (I think it was Sauron) created the Orcs by manipulating captured elves and breeding them.

In the Silmarillion it says the evil Vala Melkor created them from the Quendi/elves he got ahold of. Ha tortured, manipulated and bred them.

Since they are an evil caricature of the elves the elves hate and fight them.
But in their hearts the Orcs feared Melkor for what he had done to them but they couldn't do anything.

That's the short version. You should probably just try to read the Silmarilloin if you are interested in JRRTs version.

[Aes]

@Peter: My mistake, I was referring to them in their present, generally-accepted forms. I didn't realize they had originated as the same creature, as I've never really been able to get into Tolkien.

[Lith]

I think I read somewhere that the word "orc" pre-dated Tolkien. But yeah, it's basically the same thing as a goblin.

[Culhwch]

I think the term 'orc' is fair game, whether or not Tolkein coined it. It has passed into the common usage, particularly in RPGs and fantasy literature - for instance Stan Nichols(?) series based around orcs, amongst many other uses...

And welcome to the boards, el-saher. I think you may be our first member from Egypt!

[magician2magici]

hello,
good discussion here , so they are creatures came from auther's mind but usually referred to tolkien for having using them at the first place , good


and thanks for welcoming culhwch , it's cool to be the first , and i hope not being the last..

salam..
el-saher>>

[Aes]

Originally Posted by Lith

I think I read somewhere that the word "orc" pre-dated Tolkien. But yeah, it's basically the same thing as a goblin.

I did some looking into this, and it seems to have been resurrected by Tolkien from the story of Beowulf. Additionally, the word and variations of it hail from outside the realm of fictional writing, existing within languages such as Gaelic. (young pig) That would certainly explain why orcs are sometimes portrayed as pig-like.

[j. d. worthington]

As this seems to be more Tolkien-related than related to any other writing topic, I've moved this to the Tolkien forum....

[Fake Vencar]

There are so many versions of Orcs in different worlds. In the LOTR, the goblins and orcs are the same thing, just the film makes them different.

In the Games Workshop creations they are essentially the same height as a human, just a bit bulkier and a lot less intelligent.

Is Orc in the dictionary because its not in auto correct???

[Aes]

Originally Posted by Fake Vencar

Is Orc in the dictionary because its not in auto correct???

Yes.

[Black Razor]

Well, what a great discussion!

According to my brief research the word Orc (sometimes spelled Ork) originally comes from the Latin word Orcus, a title of the god Roman god Pluto, the king of the underworld. It was later used to refer to the underworld itself.

The word appears later in the germanic languages without its Latin ending, in the more familiar form of "Orc". It was then later revived by Tolkien in his fictional stories of Middle-earth as the name of a race of creatures that are often used by evil forces as soldiers.

Originally Posted by Lith

I think I read somewhere that the word "orc" pre-dated Tolkien. But yeah, it's basically the same thing as a goblin.

Tolkien sometimes, particularly in The Hobbit, used the word "goblin" instead of "orc" (though they are completely different) to describe the same type of creature, with the smaller cave-dwelling variety that lived in the Misty Mountains being referred to as "goblin" and the larger ones elsewhere referred to as "orcs".[1]

In Tolkiens incarnation, the orcs are larger and bulkier than humans, and have a warty hide like skin. They are bred from the mud, which appears to be a direct reference to its Latin heritage.

Tolkien's own statements about the real-world origins of his use of the word "orc" are as follows:

"I originally took the word from Old English orc (Beowulf 112 orc-neas and the gloss orc = þyrs ('ogre'), heldeofol ('hell-devil'). This is supposed not to be connected with modern English orc, ork, a name applied to various sea-beasts of the dolphin order."[2]

Moving along...

Originally Posted by Aes

I did some looking into this, and it seems to have been resurrected by Tolkien from the story of Beowulf.

The word *orcné (attested in the plural orcnéas) is indeed in the poem Beowulf. It is generally supposed to contain an element -né, cognate to Gothic naus and Old Norse nár, both meaning "corpse". The usual Old English word for "corpse" is líc, but -né appears in dryhtné "dead body of a warrior", where dryht is the name of a military unit (vaguely translated "band", "host", etc.). In *orcné, if it is to be glossed as "orcus-corpse" the meaning may be "corpse from Orcus (i.e. the underworld)" or "devil-corpse", understood as some sort of walking dead. This etymology is plausible, but remains conjectural. The word orc appears in two other locations in Beowulf, but in both cases refers to cups of precious metal found in a treasure-hoard.

Moving along again...

Originally Posted by Fake Vencar

There are so many versions of Orcs in different worlds. [sic] In the Games Workshop creations they are essentially the same height as a human, just a bit bulkier and a lot less intelligent.

Now, I admit I do not really know much about the Games Workshop universe. However, I do know that in the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game, created by Gary Gygax, Orcs are a species of aggressive mammalian carnivores that band together in tribes and survive by hunting and raiding. Orcs believe that in order to survive they must expand their territory, and so they are constantly involved in wars against many enemies: humans, elves, dwarves, goblins, and other orc tribes.

Orcs vary widely in appearance as a result of frequent crossbreeding with other species. In general, they resemble primitive humans with grey-green skin covered with coarse hair. Orcs have a slightly stooped posture, a low jutting forehead, and a snout instead of a nose. Orcs have well-developed canine teeth for eating meat and short pointed ears that resemble those of a wolf. Orcish snouts and ears have a slightly pink tinge. Their eyes are human, with a reddish tint that sometimes makes them appear to glow red when they reflect dim light sources in near darkness.

Also of importance is that in the Gygax realm of D&D, orcs are only one of several types of "green skins", including trolls, goblins, and gremlins. Unique to them is that they are regenerative, ie you cant kill them by chopping off their arm, it grows back, you must kill them with fire or acid, etc...

Skipping ahead...

Originally Posted by Culhwch

I think the term 'orc' is fair game, whether or not Tolkein coined it. It has passed into the common usage, particularly in RPGs and fantasy literature - for instance Stan Nichols(?) series based around orcs, amongst many other uses...

Now, while many various versions of orcs and goblins exist in various fictional settings, generally the concept of orcs is derived from either the Tolkien or Gygax version. It is generally accepted they have green skin, covered in thick dark hair and warts, and are large and bulky in physical stature with a some what feral look.

Blah blah blah....I hope this helps.


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[1] Douglas A. Anderson: The Annotated Hobbit
[2] Nomenclature of The Lord of the Rings